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Let's discuss the truth of the Catiline conspiracy
Posted on 4/30/17 at 8:47 am
Posted on 4/30/17 at 8:47 am
Here is a summary I found online for those of you who don't know what this is
If you read Cicero's oratory accounts or most history books and documentaries (of which the information on the conspiracy is mostly based off of Cicero's account), Catiline was an over ambitious, corrupt, idiotic, power hungry POS who got what he deserved for trying to overthrow the Roman Senate for personal glory.
However, Cicero clearly hated Catiline and did everything in his power (which he had plenty of) to make Catiline into an enemy of Rome, which had the effect of making Cicero out to be a great defender of Roman Republicanism and get rid of a political enemy at the same time. So was Catiline really as terrible as he is painted to be in history?
His conspiracy makes no sense just based merely on the fact it had basically no chance of working, the only people on his side were political outsiders who owed debts or had scores to settle with the Senate and never had a real chance of working. Hell it seems like the only reason he got ANY support is because he was promising to relieve everyone's debt. I just don't see how a wealthy successful Roman Noble embarks on essentially a suicide mission soley because he lost the Consular elections in 64 BC. This leads me to believe that at least parts of the conspiracy were embellished if not completely made up by Cicero for his own political gains and to ensure the destruction of a man Cicero hated and possibly was threatened by
quote:
The second Catilinarian conspiracy, also known simply as the Catiline conspiracy, was a plot, devised by the Roman senator Catiline in the 60's BCE, with the help of a group of fellow aristocrats and disaffected veterans of Lucius Cornelius Sulla, to overthrow the consulship of Marcus Tullius Cicero and Gaius Antonius Hybrida. In 63 BC, Cicero exposed the plot, forcing Catiline to flee from Rome, raise an army, and die in battle
If you read Cicero's oratory accounts or most history books and documentaries (of which the information on the conspiracy is mostly based off of Cicero's account), Catiline was an over ambitious, corrupt, idiotic, power hungry POS who got what he deserved for trying to overthrow the Roman Senate for personal glory.
However, Cicero clearly hated Catiline and did everything in his power (which he had plenty of) to make Catiline into an enemy of Rome, which had the effect of making Cicero out to be a great defender of Roman Republicanism and get rid of a political enemy at the same time. So was Catiline really as terrible as he is painted to be in history?
His conspiracy makes no sense just based merely on the fact it had basically no chance of working, the only people on his side were political outsiders who owed debts or had scores to settle with the Senate and never had a real chance of working. Hell it seems like the only reason he got ANY support is because he was promising to relieve everyone's debt. I just don't see how a wealthy successful Roman Noble embarks on essentially a suicide mission soley because he lost the Consular elections in 64 BC. This leads me to believe that at least parts of the conspiracy were embellished if not completely made up by Cicero for his own political gains and to ensure the destruction of a man Cicero hated and possibly was threatened by
This post was edited on 4/30/17 at 8:48 am
14
Posted on 4/30/17 at 8:49 am to Tiger1242
I'll speak for the silent majority here and say who gives a frick.
Posted on 4/30/17 at 8:49 am to Tiger1242
Cicero did play politics.
Posted on 4/30/17 at 8:59 am to Tiger1242
Posted on 4/30/17 at 9:00 am to Tiger1242
You came to the right place for intellectual discussions of ancient history.
Posted on 4/30/17 at 9:02 am to chinhoyang
quote:
You came to the right place for intellectual discussions of ancient history.
I know right
Posted on 4/30/17 at 9:02 am to baybeefeetz
quote:
who gives a frick.
it's fvck
Posted on 4/30/17 at 9:03 am to Tiger1242
This 2000 year old injustice will not stand
Posted on 4/30/17 at 9:07 am to WestCoastAg
Posted on 4/30/17 at 9:10 am to Tiger1242
I'm sure Cicero took some artistic license with the facts.
"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past.” George Orwell, 1984
-Gary Chambers
"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past.” George Orwell, 1984
-Gary Chambers
Posted on 4/30/17 at 9:14 am to Tiger1242
quote:
I just don't see how a wealthy successful Roman Noble embarks on essentially a suicide mission soley because he lost the Consular elections in 64 BC.
"I ain't a killer but don't push me
Revenge is like the sweetest joy next to gettin' pussy"
- Tupac
Posted on 4/30/17 at 9:18 am to Tiger1242
The real value of it is we learned about Ceasar's affair w Servilia
Posted on 4/30/17 at 9:20 am to Tiger1242
Quo usque tandem abutere, Catilinam, patentia nostra?--Cicero, In Catilinam
Translated this in one of my Latin classes at LSU. Good stuff.
Translated this in one of my Latin classes at LSU. Good stuff.
Posted on 4/30/17 at 9:20 am to Tiger1242
If it weren't for CNN's biased coverage he would have never gotten away with it. (Cicero News Network.)
Posted on 4/30/17 at 9:28 am to tigerpimpbot
quote:
Gary Chambers
Didn't think I'd see a Gary Chambers mention when I clicked on this thread. He truly rules the OT.
Posted on 4/30/17 at 9:31 am to Tiger1242
Mister Landrieu:
Tear down this statue!
Tear down this statue!
Posted on 4/30/17 at 10:09 am to Tiger1242
The truth is the late Roman Republic was a huge mess where the two factions took turns coming to power and members of the faction out of power were liable to turn up missing or dead.
Luckily, we've not come to that point yet.
Luckily, we've not come to that point yet.
Posted on 4/30/17 at 10:18 am to Methuselah
His name was Seth Rich
Posted on 4/30/17 at 10:27 am to Tiger1242
Most importantly....who writes history?
The victor.
This alone coukd have played the greatest role in the story and emphasized the tyrant level of an usurper.
However, I seem to remember an article about this that claimed Catiline was very close to persuading a small, but very powerful coalition of Senators to his side. Of course it was suicide to show their hand too early, thus they remained neutral until Catiline could become strong enough to protect them in a coup d'etat.
It never was enough....but very close!
Thus, Cicero orated the history as a 'great threat' to Rome that was squashed. Hero!!!
The victor.
This alone coukd have played the greatest role in the story and emphasized the tyrant level of an usurper.
However, I seem to remember an article about this that claimed Catiline was very close to persuading a small, but very powerful coalition of Senators to his side. Of course it was suicide to show their hand too early, thus they remained neutral until Catiline could become strong enough to protect them in a coup d'etat.
It never was enough....but very close!
Thus, Cicero orated the history as a 'great threat' to Rome that was squashed. Hero!!!
Posted on 4/30/17 at 10:30 am to WAR TIGER
quote:
However, I seem to remember an article about this that claimed Catiline was very close to persuading a small, but very powerful coalition of Senators to his side. Of course it was suicide to show their hand too early, thus they remained neutral until Catiline could become strong enough to protect them in a coup d'etat.
This could make a lot of sense and it would also make sense for Cicero to leave that part out so as not to alienate his contemporaries especially since he needed allies
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