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re: Doctor referrals, cardiologist, & other stuff

Posted on 10/18/16 at 8:59 pm to
Posted by ThinePreparedAni
In a sea of cognitive dissonance
Member since Mar 2013
11089 posts
Posted on 10/18/16 at 8:59 pm to
There is a large randomized trial currently underway (the name escapes me). I cannot link everything I want to because they are password protected sites



quote:

International expert consensus conference on testosterone deficiency and its treatment held in Prague, Czech Republic
Abraham Morgentaler, Michael Zitzmann, A. M. Traish & Anthony Fox


Morgentaler is one of the leading researchers in this field..

quote:

Abstract
An international expert consensus conference regarding testosterone deficiency (TD) (also known as hypogonadism) and its treatment was held on 1 October 2015, in Prague, Czech Republic. The impetus for this meeting was to address several key scientific issues that have been misunderstood or distorted during the recent intense media attention to this topic. Eighteen experts from 11 countries participated, from the disciplines of urology, endocrinology, andrology, diabetology, and basic science research. The goal was to identify scientific concepts for which there was broad agreement. It was noted that recent public controversies regarding testosterone therapy have been anchored by two retrospective studies reporting increased cardiovascular (CV) risks. Both these studies contained major flaws, and are contradicted by a large body of evidence suggesting CV benefits with testosterone therapy. Other topics discussed included the negative impact of TD on male health; the questionable validity of restrictions on treatment based on age-specific cut-offs, presence of identified underlying conditions, or application of rigid biochemical thresholds; and the lack of evidence regarding prostate cancer risks. Final consensus statements (resolutions) are under development. It is hoped these will serve as a scientific foundation for further discussion, and will thereby reduce misinformation regarding TD and its treatment.


quote:

Shifting the Paradigm of Testosterone and Prostate Cancer: The Saturation Model and the Limits of Androgen-Dependent Growth
By: Abraham Morgentalera lowast and Abdulmaged M. Traishb
European Urology, Volume 55 Issue 2, February 2009, Pages 310-321
Published online: 01 February 2009
Keywords: Prostate cancer, Testosterone, Androgens, Saturation, Hypogonadism, Androgen receptor
Abstract Full Text Full Text PDF (777 KB) Article has an altmetric score of 4 Share
Abstract
Context
The traditional belief that prostate cancer (PCa) growth is dependent on serum testosterone (T) level has been challenged by recent negative studies in noncastrated men.


Objective
To provide an improved framework for understanding the relationship of PCa to serum T level that is consistent with current evidence and is based on established biochemical principles of androgen action within the prostate.

Evidence acquisition
A literature search was performed of publications dating from 1941 to 2008 that addressed experimental and clinical effects of androgens on prostate growth. Review of studies investigating the prostatic effects of manipulation of androgen concentrations in human and animal studies, and in PCa cell lines.

Evidence synthesis
Prostate growth is exquisitely sensitive to variations in androgen concentrations at very low concentrations, but becomes insensitive to changes in androgen concentrations at higher levels. This pattern is consistent with the observation that androgens exert their prostatic effects primarily via binding to the androgen receptor (AR), and that maximal androgen-AR binding is achieved at serum T concentrations well below the physiologic range. A Saturation Model is proposed that accounts for the seemingly contradictory results in human PCa studies. Changes in serum T concentrations below the point of maximal androgen-AR binding will elicit substantial changes in PCa growth, as seen with castration, or with T administration to previously castrated men. In contrast, once maximal androgen-AR binding is reached the presence of additional androgen produces little further effect.

Conclusions
The evidence clearly indicates that there is a limit to the ability of androgens to stimulate PCa growth. A Saturation Model based on androgen-AR binding provides a satisfactory conceptual framework to account for the dramatic effects seen with castration as well as the minor impact of T administration in noncastrated men.

Take Home Message
Evidence from multiple sources indicates there is a limit to the ability of testosterone to stimulate prostate growth. The Saturation Model explains why castration causes prostate cancer to regress, yet testosterone therapy may not cause it to grow more rapidly.


This post was edited on 10/18/16 at 9:02 pm
Posted by Crimson
Member since Jan 2013
1330 posts
Posted on 10/18/16 at 9:11 pm to
Still no prospective RCT showing benefit to CV risk factors. It's worth noting that TRT guidelines are for symptomatic hypogonadism - which is formally defined - not simply for low-T as advertised on radio. I've attached a citation from a recent review from the Journal of the American College of Cardiology - it cites the VA study with the dubious result your abstract from the Czech Republic likely references.

Testosterone and Cardiovascular Disease. J Am Coll Cardiol 2016;67:545-557.
Posted by ThinePreparedAni
In a sea of cognitive dissonance
Member since Mar 2013
11089 posts
Posted on 10/18/16 at 9:11 pm to
Slightly off topic, but reinforces the point...

LINK

quote:

Prostate Cancer Treatment Can Raise Dementia Risk



OCT. 13, 2016



quote:

Reducing testosterone levels with androgen deprivation therapy, or A.D.T., is a common treatment for prostate cancer. But a new study has found that it more than doubles the risk of dementia.


Association Between Androgen Deprivation Therapy and Risk of Dementia
Kevin T. Nead, MD, MPhil1,2; Greg Gaskin, BS1; Cariad Chester, BS3; et al

quote:

Abstract
Importance A growing body of evidence supports a link between androgen deprivation therapy (ADT) and cognitive dysfunction, including Alzheimer disease. However, it is currently unknown whether ADT may contribute to the risk of dementia more broadly.

Objective To use an informatics approach to examine the association of ADT as a treatment for prostate cancer with the subsequent development of dementia (eg, senile dementia, vascular dementia, frontotemporal dementia, and Alzheimer dementia).

Design, Setting, and Participants In this cohort study, a text-processing method was used to analyze electronic medical record data from an academic medical center from 1994 to 2013, with a median follow-up of 3.4 years (interquartile range, 1.0-7.2 years). We identified 9455 individuals with prostate cancer who were 18 years or older at diagnosis with data recorded in the electronic health record and follow-up after diagnosis. We excluded 183 patients with a previous diagnosis of dementia. Our final cohort comprised 9272 individuals with prostate cancer, including 1826 men (19.7%) who received ADT.

Main Outcomes and Measures We tested the effect of ADT on the risk of dementia using propensity score–matched Cox proportional hazards regression models and Kaplan-Meier survival analysis.

Results Among 9272 men with prostate cancer (mean [SD] age, 66.9 [10.9] years; 5450 [58.8%] white), there was a statistically significant association between use of ADT and risk of dementia (hazard ratio, 2.17; 95% CI, 1.58-2.99; P?<?.001). In sensitivity analyses, results were similar when excluding patients with Alzheimer disease (hazard ratio, 2.32; 95% CI, 1.73-3.12; P?<?.001). The absolute increased risk of developing dementia among those who received ADT was 4.4% at 5 years (7.9% among those who received ADT vs 3.5% in those who did not receive ADT). Analyses stratified by duration of ADT found that individuals with at least 12 months of ADT use had the greatest absolute increased risk of dementia (hazard ratio, 2.36; 95% CI, 1.64-3.38; P?<?.001). Kaplan-Meier analysis demonstrated that ADT users 70 years or older had the lowest cumulative probability of remaining dementia free (log-rank P?<?.001).

Conclusions and Relevance Androgen deprivation therapy in the treatment of prostate cancer may be associated with an increased risk of dementia. This finding should be further evaluated in prospective studies.
Posted by ThinePreparedAni
In a sea of cognitive dissonance
Member since Mar 2013
11089 posts
Posted on 10/18/16 at 9:23 pm to
There is no doubt in my mind that TRT is overprescribed. No argument here. If you look at my original response, I advised diet/lifestyle changes as the first line therapy (as all men should be), but got down-voted for doing so...

Morgentaler is a very well respected authority on this topic. I will try to find better references, but most of my summarized material is copyrighted/password protected.

I am respectful of the knowledge gleamed from RCTs, but I am careful not to remain impotent "waiting" for RCT data to come around. I am still waiting on the RCT confirming the efficacy of parachutes...
Posted by Reubaltaich
A nation under duress
Member since Jun 2006
4962 posts
Posted on 10/18/16 at 9:27 pm to
Guys/gals. I appreciate each and everyone of your inputs.


Hopefully I can give more info to all your responses.

Just to clarify, on my BlueCross/Blue Shield of Louisiana, it states: 'Your Network: Preferred Care Network'. Then on my card I carry in my wallet it has 'Preferred Care PPO'.

Looking at my lab report:

*Creatinine,Serum: Result: .70, Flag: Low,
Units mg/dl, then Reference Interval 0.76-1.27

* LDL Cholesterol Calc: Result: 117, Flag: High
Units mg/dl Reference Interval:0-99

* Cholesterol, Total: Result: 184, Units: mg/dl Interval 100-199
*Triglycerides: Result 104, Units: mg/dl Interval 0-149
*HDL Cholesterol: Result 46 Units Interval >39


*Testosterone, Serum: Result: 312, Flag:Low
Units ng/dl, Reference Interval 348-1197

Roger on losing weight, eating better and losing weight.
I would really like to do this without any T-shots and keep as natural as possible.

The reason I want a go test on my heart,
1. Heart issues run in my family.
2. Sometimes I get a little rapid heart beat.
3. I get a little pang in my left chest(pectoral) every now and then.


Again, thanks for all your inputs.
Posted by GeauxTigers777
Member since Oct 2007
1571 posts
Posted on 10/18/16 at 9:41 pm to
I think part of the data with heart risk comes from individuals that develop polycythemia while on testosterone. This is why some practitioners recommend therapeutic phlebotomy.

T replacement is a money making business. A lot of people need replacement, but even more are receiving unnecessary treatment. Having a T over 1000 is not a natural phenomena for most men over 55, but numerous men seek this. They say it makes them feel better. Sure it does, but so does cocaine. Nothing in medicine or life is without risk. It is up to the practitioner and patient to stratify that risk.

OP, lose weight, and I almost guarantee that your t will elevate, and you will feel better. If you have to go the testosterone route, look at testopel. I've heard numerous people like this route of delivery.
Posted by Patrick_Bateman
Member since Jan 2012
17823 posts
Posted on 10/18/16 at 9:48 pm to
For one, I absolutely would NOT take a testosterone injection if your only symptom is feeling sluggish from time to time. In fact, I have no idea why your doctor - ahem, NP - would even check your testosterone level. Actually, I do - more money. But I digress. Don't get a testosterone shot, especially if you're worried about heart disease. Testosterone supplementation is associated with increased risk of adverse cardiovascular events.

Even if heart disease runs in your family, there's no reason for you to get a stress test or an echocardiogram unless you're having symptoms (e.g., frequent chest pain or shortness of breath on exertion). I'm sure a cardiologist would be happy to perform those expensive tests, but there's no indication. Maybe an EKG (if you have high BP), but you can get that at your primary care doctor's office.

Re: the referral itself, I don't see any reason why you wouldn't be able to call a cardiologist's office and request an appointment, unless there's some weird insurance limitation or requirement.
Posted by mikrit54
Robeline
Member since Oct 2013
8664 posts
Posted on 10/18/16 at 9:53 pm to
quote:

I think most medical specialization offices require a referral before accepting a new patient.

Again it depends on your insurance. Last month I had an appointment with a cardiologist at the Cleveland Clinic and needed no referral.
Posted by t00f
Not where you think I am
Member since Jul 2016
89715 posts
Posted on 10/18/16 at 9:54 pm to
Usually if your insurance requires a PCP it requires a referral.
Posted by mikrit54
Robeline
Member since Oct 2013
8664 posts
Posted on 10/18/16 at 9:56 pm to
Exactly. Depends on the carrier.
Posted by Scooby
Member since Aug 2006
1880 posts
Posted on 10/18/16 at 10:05 pm to
quote:

In fact, I have no idea why your doctor - ahem, NP - would even check your testosterone level. 


It's actually become a pretty common test on initial screenings, especially with the emergence of metabolic syndrome. Also more emphasis on measuring vitamin D levels, although it's never been proven to be of any benefit.
Posted by Rust Cohle
Baton rouge
Member since Mar 2014
1937 posts
Posted on 10/18/16 at 10:07 pm to
Insurance doesn't want you to be referred, it cost them twice as much.
Posted by Crimson
Member since Jan 2013
1330 posts
Posted on 10/18/16 at 10:18 pm to
Agree with the frustration on waiting for an RCT - problem is we cannot make affirmative statements in Medicine without one.

BTW - love the BMJ holiday issue . I know the satirical article to which you are referring but I don't prescribe parachutes.
Posted by lsucoonass
shreveport and east texas
Member since Nov 2003
68446 posts
Posted on 10/18/16 at 10:28 pm to
get the test shot.

do some aerobic conditioning and weights
tighten up your diet

and you should be fine
Posted by Reubaltaich
A nation under duress
Member since Jun 2006
4962 posts
Posted on 10/19/16 at 6:15 am to
I agree, I am a little reluctant about taking a 'shot' unless it is absolutely necessary.

Thanks again for all your input.
Posted by Scruffy
Kansas City
Member since Jul 2011
72016 posts
Posted on 10/19/16 at 6:22 am to
quote:

Opps, should've been 117/83.
Who told you that was high? Are you a 5 year old?
This post was edited on 10/19/16 at 6:23 am
Posted by LSUsuperfresh
Member since Oct 2010
8329 posts
Posted on 10/19/16 at 6:22 am to
quote:

Testosterone low(312).


Get your free tesosterone tested as well. I'm 24 and was tested at 320 total. Apparently the test is very finnicky and 1 test at the lower range really doesn't tell you much.
Posted by Tiger Nation 84
Member since Dec 2011
36514 posts
Posted on 10/19/16 at 6:28 am to
I agree go see a dr and get your heart checked out, but I have been dealing with spikes in BP, and tightness in chest and sometimes rapid heartbeat etc. Some of it is stress related, and anxiety that leads to panic attacks. But my heart is in good condition or so I have been told a few times by DRs. So if I were you get it checked, but ask about anxiety. Also your Blood Pressure is not high at all, I have been living with an average 130/85 and told that its ok. hope that this helps.
Posted by Reubaltaich
A nation under duress
Member since Jun 2006
4962 posts
Posted on 10/19/16 at 6:35 am to
quote:





Here is what was on my lab report:.

*Testosterone, Free(Direct): Result: 9.1

Units pg/mL Interval: 7.2-24.0

Also did a Vitamin B12 test:

*Result: 415, Units pg/mL 211-949
Posted by Scruffy
Kansas City
Member since Jul 2011
72016 posts
Posted on 10/19/16 at 6:50 am to
quote:

Also your Blood Pressure is not high at all, I have been living with an average 130/85 and told that its ok.
This.

117/83 is in no way high.
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