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Message
re: Worse talent level in Payton era
Posted on 9/2/15 at 9:48 pm to moneyg
Posted on 9/2/15 at 9:48 pm to moneyg
quote:
It's unfavorable relative to the good teams in the league. In fact, like another poster said, if you traded Brees for say a Carson Palmer, this would be a 2-3 win team.
But how is that really an argument? If we didn't have this really talented player, who will be a first ballet HOF, then we'd be a lot less talented? Well no crap.
It would be tantamount to me looking at a glass of beer and saying "If I poured out half of this beer, I'd have 50% percent less beer," and then having an anxiety attack over it.
I mean you can say that for any team. If the Packers lose Aaron Rodgers, they've be screwed. Hell, if the Panthers lost Kuechley, they'd be royally screwed. This simply isn't an argument. It's a fallacy.
1
Posted on 9/2/15 at 9:54 pm to Patrick O Rly
quote:
I think the offense will be outright dominant. I think that's what's lost in this whole debate. It's as if people are assuming that we field one unit, or the other team doesn't have a defense. They're going to have to deal with us.
I agree. This offensive line looks very stout now that Evans seems to be playing in good form, and Unger looks like a huge acquisition. We're picking up good yardage on first downs, first team offense looks legit. The main thing they need to work on is goal line offense. If they get anywhere close to their redzone TD% from previous seasons (with Jimmy) then they'll light the world on fire yet again. One major weakness is the lack of depth at Guard. We are literally one injury from utter failure on the offensive line.
quote:
the run defense is very stout
I'm seeing this too. For once I am not screaming at the TV when the other team runs the football. We have, at minimum, a competent linebacking corps that could grow into one of the better ones in the NFL.
quote:
- they limit yards after the catch
This has been better so far, but they still have whiffed on tackles. It's no shock when JSB doesn't wrap up on a tackle, he's new to this side of the ball so he is learning fundamentals very fast. But if he is going to be on the field he either has to be a shutdown corner or at least be physical and tackle well.
quote:
the pass rush is still spotty, but it looked better once the starters got extended playing time against the Pats.
Yeah I really don't know if that was the norm or if that was just an anomaly. They came out and dominated from the first series of the game and didn't let up, I don't really know that having more time to play together was the reason.
This post was edited on 9/2/15 at 9:55 pm
Posted on 9/2/15 at 10:02 pm to Patrick O Rly
quote:
But how is that really an argument? If we didn't have this really talented player, who will be a first ballet HOF, then we'd be a lot less talented? Well no crap.
That's what this entire thread is about. It's a question of whether or not the overall talent on this team is the worst in the Payton era. Brees has been here the entire time. But, the surrounding talent seems lower this year than it has been.
I'm not sure why you are confused about the subject.
quote:
I mean you can say that for any team. If the Packers lose Aaron Rodgers, they've be screwed.
You missed the point totally. But, even still, the Packers have a more talent, IMO. Lacy, Cobb, Nelson, Bulaga, Matthews, Peppers, etc.
I think LE has it right. If EVERYTHING goes right, this team could win 10 games. But, the list is long...
Cooks becomes a pro-bowl WR (possible)
Running game takes another step forward (possible)
Pass protection takes a serious step forward (possible)
Linebackers take a serious step forward (Anthony and Ellerbe have to be significant upgrades...possible)
DBs need to take a step forward (Browner and/or Breaux need to play above average football...possible)
That's a lot of things that need to go right. And, we are already fighting injuries. If I'm being honest, I think this is a 7-8 win team.
Posted on 9/2/15 at 10:08 pm to bountyhunter
i'd feel a lot better about things if the secondary was healthy.
thats basically it.
we've been trying to upgrade it the last few years and it looks like Byrd (probably) and Lewis (for sure) will miss time.
look, I don't care what Byrd's situation is... its been totally frustrating so far with him. There is a legit gripe here.. that is a lot of money going to waste on a fricking meniscus tear or because of some heel pain (plantar fasciitis) which is usually pretty treatable.
and if I'm dead wrong on his injury... great how in the hell are we supposed to know when we have no credible update.
thats basically it.
we've been trying to upgrade it the last few years and it looks like Byrd (probably) and Lewis (for sure) will miss time.
look, I don't care what Byrd's situation is... its been totally frustrating so far with him. There is a legit gripe here.. that is a lot of money going to waste on a fricking meniscus tear or because of some heel pain (plantar fasciitis) which is usually pretty treatable.
and if I'm dead wrong on his injury... great how in the hell are we supposed to know when we have no credible update.
Posted on 9/2/15 at 10:08 pm to moneyg
quote:
That's what this entire thread is about. It's a question of whether or not the overall talent on this team is the worst in the Payton era. Brees has been here the entire time. But, the surrounding talent seems lower this year than it has been.
I disagree.
Outside of Brees, I'd say the above average talent is:
Ingram
Robinson
Spiller (if healthy)
Armstead
Unger
Jordan
Hicks
Kikaha
Anthony
Ellerbe (if healthy)
Browner
Breaux
Vacarro
Moorstead
Murphy (as a returner)
I think Armstead, Kikaha and Anthony have a chance to be superstars.
We're talking about talent. We're not talking about establish, tracked and quantified performance. In this sense, this team is nowhere near the least talented roster. Hell, the team had a lot of talent last year, but it woefully failed to live up to it's talent.
Talent is not my concern. My concern is discipline and a real commitment to each other.
Posted on 9/2/15 at 10:10 pm to moneyg
quote:
I think LE has it right. If EVERYTHING goes right, this team could win 10 games. But, the list is long...
With last years schedule, I would agree, but this years schedule is rather favorable, and the division is still weak.
Posted on 9/2/15 at 10:15 pm to moneyg
quote:
Colston is not above average. No way.
What do you think average is?
quote:
Spiller has shown flashes, but to say he's above average is a stretch.
He's above average in the NFL for a 3rd won back, which is what he is here. Not a stretch at all.
quote:
Strief, meh.
Unquestionably above average for a starting RT.
quote:
It's unfavorable relative to the good teams in the league. In fact, like another poster said, if you traded Brees for say a Carson Palmer, this would be a 2-3 win team.
Yes, if you trade one of the best players to ever play for an average starting QB, we would suffer greatly. The thing is, we have him and the cap room that comes with such a great player...
The Packers went 2-5-1 without AR, almost every playoff competitor is shite without their starter
This post was edited on 9/2/15 at 10:21 pm
Posted on 9/2/15 at 10:18 pm to TigerBait1127
Teams would love a right tackle like Strief. He is undervalued.
Posted on 9/2/15 at 10:22 pm to TigerBait1127
quote:
What do you think average is?
We both know what average is. If you don't agree, just make your case. You don't have to play the semantics game.
Colston's stats are propped up by Brees. He doesn't make the plays he made 4+ years ago. There are probably 50 WRs in the league who would perform at the level he performs at in this offense. He's average.
quote:
He's above average in the NFL for a 3rd won back, which is what he is here. Not a stretch at all.
Ok. So, you are making a very minor point because you've relegated him to a minor role.
quote:
Unquestionably above average for a starting RT.
Ok. It's close. He had a good year last year. Not so good the year before. He's aging.
Posted on 9/2/15 at 10:27 pm to Patrick O Rly
quote:
I disagree.
Outside of Brees, I'd say the above average talent is:
Ingram
Robinson
Spiller (if healthy)
Armstead
Unger
Jordan
Hicks
Kikaha
Anthony
Ellerbe (if healthy)
Browner
Breaux
Vacarro
So, these are the guys you've added to my list:
quote:
Robinson
Spiller (if healthy)
Kikaha
Anthony
Ellerbe (if healthy)
Browner
Breaux
Vacarro
Kikaha and Anthony are rookies. You are making assumptions.
Ellerbe is obviously no sure thing. You are expecting improvement.
Browner I've discussed.
Breaux has no NFL pedigree. The reports are good, but we haven't seen anything to think he's above average. In fact, I'd be ecstatic if he ended up being average.
Vacarro hasn't been above average. He made some plays his rookie year, and has been at best average since. You are expecting improvement.
quote:
Moorstead
Agree. But, he's a punter.
quote:
Murphy (as a returner)
Ridiculous to say at this point. Certainly, you are expecting something that hasn't been shown yet.
ETA, Robinson and Spiller are both good talents.
This post was edited on 9/2/15 at 10:28 pm
Posted on 9/2/15 at 10:27 pm to moneyg
quote:
We both know what average is. If you don't agree, just make your case. You don't have to play the semantics game.
No, i'm truly asking what you think average is. If you don't think Strief is above average, then you need to do some self-evaluation
quote:
Ok. So, you are making a very minor point because you've relegated him to a minor role.
Man, almost like I made that point originally :
quote:
Spiller for his role
I mean, that is his role here. That is the reason we brought him in and it has HUGE significance in NOLA
quote:
Ok. It's close. He had a good year last year. Not so good the year before. He's aging.
What? He was one of the top rated RTs in the NFL in 2013. PFF actually has him #9 among all tackles. You may disagree with their ratings to an extent, but he was undoubtedly an "above average" RT.
That was the entire reason I asked what you meant by "average", b/c there isn't a question there
quote:
He doesn't make the plays he made 4+ years ago.
You're right, he doesn't make the plays he did 10+ years ago when he was a top 10 WR in the NFl. The argument is AVERAGE
This post was edited on 9/2/15 at 10:33 pm
Posted on 9/2/15 at 10:29 pm to TigerBait1127
quote:
That was the entire reason I asked what you meant by "average", b/c there isn't a question there
Again, we both know what average is.
Maybe I'm off by a year on Strief. I didn't remember him having a good 2013 season.
Nevertheless, this team overall is undertalented, IMO. That's my opinion.
Posted on 9/2/15 at 10:35 pm to moneyg
quote:
Again, we both know what average is.
No, we don't. I know what a statistical average is, but you seem to miss it
quote:
There are probably 50 WRs in the league who would perform at the level he performs at in this offense.
32 teams in the NFL. So if he's #51, he would still be above average as an NFL wide receiver
quote:
Nevertheless, this team overall is undertalented, IMO. That's my opinion.
Cool, just study up on the definition of average
This post was edited on 9/2/15 at 10:36 pm
Posted on 9/2/15 at 10:39 pm to moneyg
quote:
Vacarro hasn't been above average. He made some plays his rookie year, and has been at best average since. You are expecting improvement.
I'm not saying the KV is a great player or anything, but he's played 2 seasons.
So, in season 1 if he was good, and then in season 2 he was average, then he is still above average.
Now I think he sucked last year, so over the course of 2 years, he's probably right around average
This post was edited on 9/2/15 at 10:40 pm
Posted on 9/2/15 at 10:46 pm to Patrick O Rly
I'm very happy with our tackles. I feel better about the team keeping Brees upright with Peat backing up our starting tackles than Bryce Harris.
He took a very team-friendly contract. He could have got more from another team but decided to take less and stay with the Saints. For that reason, coupled with his above average play, he is one of my favorite players on the team right now.
quote:
Teams would love a right tackle like Strief. He is undervalued.
He took a very team-friendly contract. He could have got more from another team but decided to take less and stay with the Saints. For that reason, coupled with his above average play, he is one of my favorite players on the team right now.
Posted on 9/2/15 at 10:53 pm to TigerBait1127
quote:
No, we don't. I know what a statistical average is, but you seem to miss it
Average NFL starter dude. This conversation is about what our overall talent looks like. You make no point when you say that our starting WR is above average relative to the entire population of WRs in the league. That certainly wasn't the point I was trying to make and only an idiot would have thought that.
quote:
32 teams in the NFL. So if he's #51, he would still be above average as an NFL wide receiver
How does it make any sense to think that i'm not talking about starters when trying to evaluate the talent level? Colston is a starter. He's not an above average starter.
quote:
Cool, just study up on the definition of average
Congrats. You've successfully played the semantics game and in the process lost total site of the conversation at hand.
This post was edited on 9/2/15 at 10:55 pm
Posted on 9/2/15 at 11:04 pm to xraytech
How the hell does this have 38 down votes? Outside of QB is there one elite unit on this team? We have only two NFL caliber WRs, no tight ends, a secondary that hasn't been reliable since late 2013, nothing proven at linebacker, etc. If Brees were to get hurt we'd be lucky to win a game and I think deep down everyone here knows it. The Texans game was a good example of what we'd look like.
Posted on 9/2/15 at 11:04 pm to moneyg
quote:
Vacarro hasn't been above average. He made some plays his rookie year, and has been at best average since. You are expecting improvement.
I think his play has to do more with scheme. Sure, he missed assignments last year but at least in his rookie year we had a few vets back there also who had been around the team for awhile (Jenkins, Harper). By the way.. Jenkins looked a lot better in Philly last year for whatever reason.
Posted on 9/2/15 at 11:08 pm to moneyg
and I also agree with a lot of what you are saying.
i'm worried about the secondary with injuries and the D-line depth wise. No true pass rusher for real.
LB's get a pass in my book.. we finally drafted some young blood there that I like and I'm not expecting a lot from them right out of the gate.
i'm worried about the secondary with injuries and the D-line depth wise. No true pass rusher for real.
LB's get a pass in my book.. we finally drafted some young blood there that I like and I'm not expecting a lot from them right out of the gate.
Posted on 9/2/15 at 11:11 pm to moneyg
quote:
Congrat[quote]You make no point when you say that our starting WR is above average relative to the entire population of WRs in the league.That certainly wasn't the point I was trying to make and only an idiot would have thought that.
That isn't what I said actually. I'd consider a starting WR a WR#3 in a good bit of offenses these days, and I think that colston is above average in that regard
quote:
How does it make any sense to think that i'm not talking about starters when trying to evaluate the talent level? Colston is a starter. He's not an above average starter.
Because I wouldnt consider him a #1 but would still consider him a solid #2 and a WELL above average receiver
Despite his drops last season:
33rd in yards, 16th in Yrds/Catch, 46th in TDs, 35th in Yrds/Game.
All look above average to me, especially for a NFL #2
quote:
Congrats. You've successfully played the semantics game and in the process lost total site of the conversation at hand.
Look, only an idiot would argue that Strief isn't an above average RT then double down to a year further as evidence of aging and regression. We all know that aging really happens inversely.
This post was edited on 9/2/15 at 11:16 pm
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