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Can Holiday be our Steve Nash?
Posted on 7/6/15 at 9:31 am
Posted on 7/6/15 at 9:31 am
McNamara compares Jrue Holiday and Steve Nash, and their early careers, Nash pre D'Antoni and Jrue pre Gentry do match up fairly well.
Much more at the LINK
Yesterday The Bird Writes tweeted this about Jrue's upward trajectory:
quote:
Over six seasons in Dallas, Nash averaged 16 points and 7.9 assists per 36 minutes on 46.8% shooting. Jrue Holiday’s per 36 numbers in New Orleans? 15.9 points per game and 8 assists on 45% shooting. Nash averaged 2.8 turnovers; Jrue is at 2.9. Jrue gets criticized because he doesn’t get to the line enough, but at this point in their careers, the free throw rates are nearly identical. The point is that while Jrue Holiday might not remind you of Phoenix Suns Steve Nash, you could also say that Dallas Mavericks Steve Nash wouldn’t remind you of that Steve Nash either.
Mark Cuban let Steve Nash go to Phoenix because he saw him as a good player, but not a star. Maybe a 3rd or 4th option, but not a 2nd punch to his mold-breaking power forward Dirk Nowitzki. Nash had only averaged more than eight assists once in his 8-year career, and was thought of more as a combo guard than a pure point guard at that stage.
Mike D’Antoni saw it differently, however, and the rest is history. In Phoenix, Nash became the best floor general in the game, leading a team that constantly led the NBA in pace and had his assist percentage grow from 33% his first 8 seasons to an insane 49% in his next 8 seasons in Phoenix under D’Antoni and Alvin Gentry.
Much more at the LINK
Yesterday The Bird Writes tweeted this about Jrue's upward trajectory:
This post was edited on 7/6/15 at 9:32 am
7
Posted on 7/6/15 at 9:37 am to TigerinATL
What is Jrue's TS% compared to Nash's pre-D'Antoni/Gentry?
This post was edited on 7/6/15 at 9:39 am
Posted on 7/6/15 at 9:39 am to TigerinATL
Can you imagine a prime Nash playing with AD? WOW.
Nice article, but I am skeptical.
Nice article, but I am skeptical.
Posted on 7/6/15 at 9:43 am to MrWiseGuy
Nash's TS%s were much higher his first 6 years in the league
.539
.556
.471
.601
.603
.602
That being said, I'm not looking for Gentry to turn Holiday into a multiple MVP candidate, I'd settle for a middle class version of MVP Nash.
.539
.556
.471
.601
.603
.602
That being said, I'm not looking for Gentry to turn Holiday into a multiple MVP candidate, I'd settle for a middle class version of MVP Nash.
Posted on 7/6/15 at 9:48 am to TigerinATL
Yeh, I knew Nash's TS% were much higher. I was being an asshat.
Jrue is a good shooter, but it's tough to be on Nash's level.
Jrue is a good shooter, but it's tough to be on Nash's level.
Posted on 7/6/15 at 9:52 am to TigerinATL
Posted on 7/6/15 at 9:56 am to MrWiseGuy
While Jrue wont reach the Nash's level in terms of offensive production, his DEFENSE has the potential to more than make up for that drop off.
Like ATL said, if we can get a middle class version of Nash along with that stout on-ball defense...we will be GOOD TO GO!
Like ATL said, if we can get a middle class version of Nash along with that stout on-ball defense...we will be GOOD TO GO!
Posted on 7/6/15 at 9:57 am to TigerinATL
quote:
Can Holiday be our Steve Nash?
Posted on 7/6/15 at 10:43 am to TigerinATL
This is where the numbers lie. I think they bring much that we can't see and, clearly, I am willing to use them. But there is much more to evaluating than looking at stats.
Holiday isn't the passer Dallas Nash was. Holiday isn't the on court thinker Dallas Nash was. Holiday isn't the floor leader Dallas Nash was. I'm not able to quantify any of those things and neither are any of the stats listed in the article. But I know what I saw from that Nash and I know what I've seen from Holiday. They are not on the same level.
That doesn't mean Holiday can't have a great year, see a bump in numbers, or make a leap. But Nash wasn't a success in Phoenix just because of the system. D'Antoni's system was designed for a guy like Nash, with his unparalleled handle, vision, and passing ability. You can argue that Nash made the system more than the other way around. I haven't seen that same type of spark in Holiday.
That may be true, but there was more to it than just that. Nash was already 30 and his back had already been a bit of a problem. The Mavs made him a healthy offer, but declined to match the more generous and longer PHX offer because of $$ and the worry that he wouldn't be able to play the entirety of the contract.
Holiday isn't the passer Dallas Nash was. Holiday isn't the on court thinker Dallas Nash was. Holiday isn't the floor leader Dallas Nash was. I'm not able to quantify any of those things and neither are any of the stats listed in the article. But I know what I saw from that Nash and I know what I've seen from Holiday. They are not on the same level.
That doesn't mean Holiday can't have a great year, see a bump in numbers, or make a leap. But Nash wasn't a success in Phoenix just because of the system. D'Antoni's system was designed for a guy like Nash, with his unparalleled handle, vision, and passing ability. You can argue that Nash made the system more than the other way around. I haven't seen that same type of spark in Holiday.
quote:
Mark Cuban let Steve Nash go to Phoenix because he saw him as a good player, but not a star. Maybe a 3rd or 4th option, but not a 2nd punch
That may be true, but there was more to it than just that. Nash was already 30 and his back had already been a bit of a problem. The Mavs made him a healthy offer, but declined to match the more generous and longer PHX offer because of $$ and the worry that he wouldn't be able to play the entirety of the contract.
Posted on 7/6/15 at 11:06 am to TigerinATL
This article is dumb.
Holiday won't be close to MVP and hall of fame Steve Nash. I'll settle for getting him on the court for the whole season without fracturing his foot
Holiday won't be close to MVP and hall of fame Steve Nash. I'll settle for getting him on the court for the whole season without fracturing his foot
Posted on 7/6/15 at 11:12 am to The Pirate King
Jrue disappears too much to be considered in that category.
Posted on 7/6/15 at 11:21 am to Gtothemoney
quote:
Jrue disappears too much to be considered in that category.
I think the question is can Gentry and this new staff keep him from disappearing. His got some very useful skills that just aren't being maximized.
Posted on 7/6/15 at 11:26 am to The Pirate King
quote:Agreed. This is a major stretch. He may be closer to the Lakers' Nash currently - the guy who collects a check while rehabbing an injury. I would obviously love for him to be the MVP Nash, but that may be just wishful thinking.
This article is dumb. Holiday won't be close to MVP and hall of fame Steve Nash. I'll settle for getting him on the court for the whole season without fracturing his foot
Posted on 7/6/15 at 11:47 am to NOSHAU
The point is:
If somebody would have written an article when Nash left saying that he would become an MVP candidate and 2-time winner, lead the NBA assists by a wide margin almost every year (after averaging 8 just once in the previous 8 years), etc. etc. -- What would that article have been called at the time?
Answer: Dumb.
You got to get the Nash you remember out of your mind. He was not that coming out of college or over his first 6-7 years. Not even close.
If somebody would have written an article when Nash left saying that he would become an MVP candidate and 2-time winner, lead the NBA assists by a wide margin almost every year (after averaging 8 just once in the previous 8 years), etc. etc. -- What would that article have been called at the time?
Answer: Dumb.
You got to get the Nash you remember out of your mind. He was not that coming out of college or over his first 6-7 years. Not even close.
Posted on 7/6/15 at 12:20 pm to Crewz
My personal opinion is that people often confuse likely and possible.
Is it likely KD comes here next year? No. Possible? Yes.
Is it likely Jrue can take off like Nash in Gentry's system if healthy? No. Possible? Yes.
Is it likely KD comes here next year? No. Possible? Yes.
Is it likely Jrue can take off like Nash in Gentry's system if healthy? No. Possible? Yes.
Posted on 7/6/15 at 12:25 pm to TigerinATL
The key in that headline is "The New Orleans Pelicans'" Steve Nash.
He won't be a Nash clone, but he can do some Nash things not as well as Nash, and also do some things (defend) better.
That off the dribble 3 percentage is really good. Didn't realize Jrue was that good there.
From a Grantland article on Steph:
Jrue, at just about 38 percent, is in pretty elite territory there.
I like the outside of the box approach. Good article.
Here's a player comp I ran at BBRef on both guys through six seasons.
LINK
Jrue actually has a higher VORP (8.3 to 6.9) because of his defense. But their offensive and defensive win shares aren't even comparable.
Jrue's OWS is 7, Steve's 23.
Jrue's DWS is 12.4, Steve's 4.
Their assist numbers are almost identical, though, which is surprising.
He won't be a Nash clone, but he can do some Nash things not as well as Nash, and also do some things (defend) better.
That off the dribble 3 percentage is really good. Didn't realize Jrue was that good there.
From a Grantland article on Steph:
quote:
Most Made Off-the-Dribble 3-Pointers in 2014-15
1. Stephen Curry, 147 (43 percent)
2. James Harden, 110 (36 percent)
3. Damian Lillard, 103 (33 percent)
4. Chris Paul, 90 (40 percent)
5. Lou Williams, 88 (31 percent)
Jrue, at just about 38 percent, is in pretty elite territory there.
I like the outside of the box approach. Good article.
Here's a player comp I ran at BBRef on both guys through six seasons.
LINK
Jrue actually has a higher VORP (8.3 to 6.9) because of his defense. But their offensive and defensive win shares aren't even comparable.
Jrue's OWS is 7, Steve's 23.
Jrue's DWS is 12.4, Steve's 4.
Their assist numbers are almost identical, though, which is surprising.
Posted on 7/6/15 at 2:34 pm to Crewz
quote:
He was not that coming out of college or over his first 6-7 years
I mean, Nash made 2 All NBA teams (3rd team) and was the starting pg for some of the some of the best offenses of all time before he ever got to Phoenix. Not a shabby start to a special career.
But here's my real question; throw out the intangibles I mentioned earlier (vision, bball IQ, passing ability), context of how offense/defense was played before SSOL, and whether or not Holiday can even reach those heights. Look only at the numbers.
Would that Holiday make the Pelicans a better team overall? Do the Pels need Holiday (or someone else) to imitate Phoenix Nash to max out this roster or make Gentry's offense go?
Posted on 7/6/15 at 2:50 pm to Crewz
quote:Nash was already seen as a star before he even went to Phoenix. However, more importantly, he was not coming off of two consecutive years of stress fractures that robbed him of more than half of his season. My biggest concern is him coming back healthy.
The point is: If somebody would have written an article when Nash left saying that he would become an MVP candidate and 2-time winner, lead the NBA assists by a wide margin almost every year (after averaging 8 just once in the previous 8 years), etc. etc. -- What would that article have been called at the time? Answer: Dumb. You got to get the Nash you remember out of your mind. He was not that coming out of college or over his first 6-7 years. Not even close.
Posted on 7/6/15 at 2:52 pm to Crewz
quote:How far do you stretch that before it becomes meaningless though? Almost anything is "possible." Is it likely that I win the lottery? No, Possible? Yes.
My personal opinion is that people often confuse likely and possible. Is it likely KD comes here next year? No. Possible? Yes. Is it likely Jrue can take off like Nash in Gentry's system if healthy? No. Possible? Yes.
Posted on 7/6/15 at 3:35 pm to corndeaux
Was Nash all of those things at 24yrs old?
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