re: Stoner Metal/Sludge/Doom/Post-metal/Blues Rock/Psychedelia

AFAIK, Black Sabbath's Master of Reality album is considered the first Stoner/Sludge Metal/Rock album.

For example, Dragonaut by Sleep sounds a LOT like the songs on Master of Reality.

No. It definitely is not the debut Black Sabbath album. I've been playing some songs from that album, and, it uses standard tuning for guitar with no special fuzz, distortion or other guitar pedal effects.

The debut album can be described as "heavy blues".

The third album is Master of Reality. I've played some songs from that album on guitar. The bass and guitar are both tuned to C sharp, which is three steps below standard tuning -- that had never been done before on a rock record.

Tony Iommi says that he used that tuning to get a heavier sound, and it worked. Tony uses his classic guitar pedal effects on Master of Reality.

I've been listening to and playing songs from both of these albums for some time now. The opinion of rock music at large installs Master of Reality as a seminal catalyst for the birth of Doom Metal/Stoner/Sludge Metal.

A good listen of the song "Into the Void" bears this out.

LINK

The heavy, sludgy and long intro are pure Sludge Metal. The doom and gloom lyrics are pure Doom Metal.

Lots of rock critics consider the debut album as the first "Heavy Metal" record, but, HM is not the same as Sludge Metal/Doom Metal.

I'm as or more familiar with Black Sabbath's catalog as you are and don't care what the 'critics' say. The first song on the first album is stoner. The sub-genre distinctions between stoner and doom are much too fluid to say that it nor N.I.B. nor Warning can't be labeled as stoner.

Yes, I am familiar with the different tunings on a guitar. All the evidence I need is the songs themselves, which are much more than the sum of their tunings. Just because the songs from the first two albums didn't use C# doesn't mean that the basic song structure and subject matter aren't directly related to the songs on the third album. If the C# tuning is your only defining trait on what is stoner and what is not, you're splitting hairs much too finely.

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which are much more than the sum of their tunings.

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Your opinion is a minority opinion, but, you are entitled to it notwithstanding.

I have re-visited the debut album, and, the first song can be said to be a strong influence on this interesting genre. But, still, that doesn't change the notion that the third album is the first of the stoner / sludge / doom metal genre -- and this is the majority opinion, your personal view notwithstanding.

I don't understand your need for italics. When a guitarist plays Tony Iommi's songs using the same notes in the same positions as Tony, the player gets a closer feel for the song than would a mere listener.

That's not to denigrate listeners. It's just that the player's insight is probably more astute than the insight of one who is a listener -- and only a listener.

I think that we would both urge all fans of the genre to get the first five Black Sabbath albums -- the debut, Paranoid, Master of Reality, Vol 4 and Sabbath Bloody Sabbath.

I believe that these are essential, especially the first four.

You mention splitting hairs. In these kinds of subject matters, splitting hairs is sometimes necessary to gain some precision. The tuning issue is decisive, because it does allow us to gain a more precise definition of our terms.

We share much common ground in that we both recognize this band's work as the genesis of a several new genre's of rock music. The debut album was recorded in 1969, so, they accomplished many "firsts".

I've just listened to the first song on Gigantoid. Good stuff. Sounds like they down tune the guitar to D for the song, which is typical of the genre.

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We share much common ground in that we both recognize this band's work as the genesis of a several new genre's of rock music. The debut album was recorded in 1969, so, they accomplished many "firsts".

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sums up the entire dialouge



I came across a band called Sir Lord Baltimore - wiki says they are of the first in the "stoner" genre.

Anyone have any insight? Ive heard a few of their tracks but really have a hard time agree with wiki.

Black Sabath to me is the godfather of the genre( multiple ones in fact) IMO

Let the debate rage on

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Let the debate rage on

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I agree, there's much overlap, much common ground and plenty of opportunity to split hairs.

IMHO, the use of the C# tuning first used by Iommi on Master of Reality is quite important, because, in order to use that tuning scheme, you may need to conduct some other guitar adjustments, besides just turning the machine heads. You may need to adjust the bridge and intonate after downtuning. That's why this was a radical innovation -- it was complex and more involved than the classic blues innovation of tuning down only one step to E flat, like Jimi Hendrix.

It's also interesting that the classic Fu Manchu guitar sound is made with one single coil pickup. Tony Iommi's classic guitar sound on the first three albums is also made with, not a humbucker, but with single coil pickups.

You'd think that the guitarist would want the hottest, heaviest double coil PUPs for the genre, but, this is not necessarily so. The single coil sound works.

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My guitar playing is only rudimentary.

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I appreciate your honesty and sincerity.

I'm sure that I understand your opinion.

You'll forgive me if I prefer to hear some opinions from others.

LOL haahaha... he does come off kinda silver spoonish. Albeit, he seems to know what hes talking about. I just have never played the guitar so cannot comment.

Some really raw stuff there. What more can you tell me about the band?