re: Wonder Woman rumored to be just as big a mess as BvS

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I realize I am part of the problem.

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Yes you are...but I forgive you. I want DC to do well. I wanted batman vs superman to be epic, instead I got a complete mess of a movie. I, like most people want DC movies to be great. I don't understand why people will fight you tooth and nail that DC is great and either I'm just a marvel fanboy or I just don't like that DC is dark. I've never had a problem with dark comic book movies. I loved blade and blade 2, the Watchmen, and Nolans batman series. The problem with the DCEU is their blatant disregard for a coherent story. Take batman vs superman for example: Clark has been a reporter for at least 2 years, Gotham is literally across the pond from metropolis, superman and Zod destroyed Wayne tower and when he see Bruce Wayne for the first time he ask some James McAvoy lookalike who is that??? Are you kidding me?? You sir, are a shite reporter. That's just one thing that makes no sense about the movie. Make a simple story and a semi coherent story first and foremost.

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WS story arc ruined the linchpin of the MCU, Captain America.

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Are you high? That's debatably the best movie in the franchise.

Philosophically, why TWS is a terrible villain is he completely compromises the Captain America character. Cap is the moral linchpin of the MCU. His whole being is planted on the bedrock of "Duty, Honor, Country." Nothing will (or should) sway him from that. Not ambition. Not personal friendship. Nothing. In this regard, he is the moral equivalent of the character Superman occupies in the DC world (although, obviously, not in physical capabilities). It's also why Cap has always been more of a minor character throughout the Marvel Comics run due his somewhat 2D personality as the Vietnam 60s and then the 70s passed. And we're supposed to believe he is going to throw that away because he went to PS 124 in Brooklyn in 1936 with Bucky? Turn his back on his comrades (Duty) in order to hide and protect his boyhood friend (Honor), who is a sworn enemy of America (Country)? So, now that Cap has compromised his principles he's just another character with extremely limited powers.

But yet, people on here practically need smelling salts because Superman glowered a few times and his suit isn't bright enough in MoS?

I thought TWS is okay. But I remember after seeing the movie thinking, "I hope this character goes away fast." Really left CW hoping (probably against hope) that is the last we see of TWS.

. Compromising would have been throwing Buckey under the bus knowing full well he is innocent

No, he's not. He may have extenuating or mitigating circumstances for why he's committed evil. But he's not innocent. Especially to a right/wrong character like Cap.

In the comics (and even the movies push this idea a bit), they push the idea that Cap feels at fault for what happened to Bucky. He wants to right that wrong.

As shown in Cap 1, Steve will not leave behind even when commanding officers tell him directly to do so. Cap firmly believes that no man left behind.

People get the misunderstanding that Cap is pro USA through and through. Cap has rebeled from the US several times in the comics. Cap is all about his moral beliefs and sticking to that no matter what. He has been wrong before. He has admitted he was wrong and that he pushes issues too far.

To Cap, his main trait is that he has a firm belief in what is right and wrong and doesn't sway from that. In all 3 movies Cap never doubts himself no matter what others are saying. He always believes in what he is doing. That is 100% true to the character.

People on here dig on Marvel movies a lot, but they absolutely get their characters. The Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, and Captain America that you see in their movies are the exact same ones you find in their comic books.

DC changes their characters to make them fit the movie and the tone they want the movie to have.

maybe the comic book movie era is ending.


thank god.
lets get back to realistic characters

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Philosophically, why TWS is a terrible villain is he completely compromises the Captain America character. Cap is the moral linchpin of the MCU. His whole being is planted on the bedrock of "Duty, Honor, Country." Nothing will (or should) sway him from that. Not ambition. Not personal friendship. Nothing. In this regard, he is the moral equivalent of the character Superman occupies in the DC world (although, obviously, not in physical capabilities). It's also why Cap has always been more of a minor character throughout the Marvel Comics run due his somewhat 2D personality as the Vietnam 60s and then the 70s passed. And we're supposed to believe he is going to throw that away because he went to PS 124 in Brooklyn in 1936 with Bucky? Turn his back on his comrades (Duty) in order to hide and protect his boyhood friend (Honor), who is a sworn enemy of America (Country)? So, now that Cap has compromised his principles he's just another character with extremely limited powers.

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Well that's not how he was portrayed in the movies. The movies aren't totally faithful to the comics because things are changed to make the movies more interesting. Not to mention that fact that Captain America wasn't some jingoistic "America can do no wrong" figure. Did you forget that he opposed the Registration Act, which was a legitimately passed law?

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"[Captain America] wants to serve his country, but he's not this sort of jingoistic American flag-waver. He's just a good person. We make a point of that in the script: Don't change who you are once you go from Steve Rogers to this super-soldier; you have to stay who you are inside, that's really what's important more than your strength and everything... It's also the idea that this is not about America so much as it is about the spirit of doing the right thing. It's an international cast and an international story. It's about what makes America great and what make the rest of the world great too."

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-->Joe Johnston, director of Captain America: The First Avenger, about the film.

The change makes the movie better and provides for a better arc over the movies for Steve Rogers.

See this exchange from The Winter Soldier:

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Nick Fury: These new long range precision guns can eliminate a thousand hostiles a minute. The satellites can read a terrorist's DNA before he steps outside his spider hole. We gonna neutralize a lot of threats before they even happen.

Steve Rogers: I thought the punishment usually came *after* the crime.

Nick Fury: We can't afford to wait that long.

Steve Rogers: Who's "we"?

Nick Fury: After New York, I convinced the World Security Council we needed a quantum surge in threat analysis. For once we're way ahead of the curve.

Steve Rogers: By holding a gun at everyone on Earth and calling it protection.

Nick Fury: You know, I read those SSR files. Greatest generation? You guys did some nasty stuff.

Steve Rogers: Yeah, we compromised. Sometimes in ways that made us not sleep so well. But we did it so the people could be free. This isn't freedom, this is fear.

Nick Fury: S.H.I.E.L.D. takes the world as it is, not as we'd like to be. And it's getting damn near past time for you get with that program, Cap.

Steve Rogers: Don't hold your breath.

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He may have extenuating or mitigating circumstances for why he's committed evil. But he's not innocent.

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With that mindset, Clint Barton is guilty of everything he did while under Loki's control in the Avengers.

One can only hope. Worst Batman ever!