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re: The Vietnam War (Ken Burns)
Posted on 9/20/17 at 8:52 pm to Drank
Posted on 9/20/17 at 8:52 pm to Drank
The vet that looks like Sydney Pollack has been killing it. I've seen the photog from la Drang's (They Were Soldiers) before, but his story can't be told enough. All of the interviews (American & Vietnamese) are maddingly on point.
Burns has carpet-bombed JFK & LBJ's whole administrations on this.
Burns has carpet-bombed JFK & LBJ's whole administrations on this.
This post was edited on 9/20/17 at 9:30 pm
1
Posted on 9/20/17 at 9:13 pm to Drank
Dang. The first episode replay got mislabeled as episode 2 so I have two episode ones and now episode two. That sucks! It doesn't look like it is coming back on anytime soon.
Posted on 9/20/17 at 9:45 pm to arktiger28
I like how they snuck in the dig at Bush in the National Guard 
Posted on 9/20/17 at 10:11 pm to arktiger28
You can stream them with pbs app on firetv or smartv
Posted on 9/20/17 at 10:14 pm to ThatMakesSense
Had Roosevelt not died, we never would have had the Vietnam war. He wanted France to give up Indochina.
Another tidbit is Wilsin in 1919 was approached by Ho chi minh, but Wilson refused his request to intervene.
A lot of tiny mistakes in history.
odd now Vietnam is our ally.
Another tidbit is Wilsin in 1919 was approached by Ho chi minh, but Wilson refused his request to intervene.
A lot of tiny mistakes in history.
odd now Vietnam is our ally.
Posted on 9/20/17 at 10:26 pm to Backinthe615
If you're talking about Philip Caputo, I have a not so :csb: involving him that would be tldr.
Posted on 9/20/17 at 10:37 pm to SoFla Tideroller
Not sure same guy, but I'll read any tldr on this 
Posted on 9/20/17 at 10:55 pm to Backinthe615
It only tangentially involves him. At work now. When I have a chance I'll type it out. Nothing earth-shattering, just takes a lot of typing.
Posted on 9/20/17 at 11:11 pm to SoDakHawk
quote:
The lesson from Vietnam is this, if you go to war you commit and you go to war.
The great postwar lie of Vietnam was that we lost the war because we were never fully committed. The politicians in Washington held our generals back. Between 1965 and 1968 we dropped over a million tons of missiles, bombs and rockets on North Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia but we were never fully committed?
We sprayed 12 million gallons of the deadly chemical defoliant Agent Orange over wide swaths of Southeast Asia but we were not fully committed?
At the height of the war in 1968 we deployed over half a million soldiers but we were not fully committed.
Short of nuclear bombs, we were as committed to that war as any nation could have been yet the lies of war survive. The lies of war take on mythological characteristics and believing them becomes a ritual of patriotism.
How committed have we been to Iraq and Afghanistan...pretty damn commmitted if you ask the military and families going in tour after tour - to no avail like Vietnam.
It's not committment - its the wars themselves.
As the soldiers themselves said in tonight's episode.
"We didn't want to do what we were being asked to do...we grew up in an America that we believed had honour, what they were asking us to do wasn't honourable...and for what purpose?"
Posted on 9/20/17 at 11:22 pm to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
I believe the greater point is the politicians weren't willing to go "all-in". I.e. Securing borders with Laos and Cambodia. Bombing and invading the north, blockading ports.
It still doesn't answer the question "how do you win a guerilla war?"
you don't do it with the military, you have to win over the people.
That opportunity was probably lost by 65.
Looking back, the strategy should have been, the US will blockade the north and secure the borders. The ARVN will take care of the Viet Cong.
It still doesn't answer the question "how do you win a guerilla war?"
you don't do it with the military, you have to win over the people.
That opportunity was probably lost by 65.
Looking back, the strategy should have been, the US will blockade the north and secure the borders. The ARVN will take care of the Viet Cong.
Posted on 9/21/17 at 12:33 am to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
This series is great. My father was drafted towards the end but it was over before he saw combat. It's humbling to see what he went through. He was against the war.. all hippie and stuff.. But turned 18 in 1969. Our family were WWII vets. He wasn't going to dodge the call.
The stories told from both sides are fantastic.
I'm not seeing the political bias just .. war is hell. True patriots wanting to prove themselves and live up to the "greatest generation" expectations.
It's a war that's never spoken about and I'm happy to see all of the pride on both sides.
The stories told from both sides are fantastic.
I'm not seeing the political bias just .. war is hell. True patriots wanting to prove themselves and live up to the "greatest generation" expectations.
It's a war that's never spoken about and I'm happy to see all of the pride on both sides.
Posted on 9/21/17 at 3:13 am to Othello
Rhodesia wasn't a mess, and India seems to be doing pretty well for itself.
Posted on 9/21/17 at 6:39 am to upgrayedd
quote:
I like how they snuck in the dig at Bush in the National Guard
They also showed a photo of young Bill Clinton when talking about draft deferments.
Posted on 9/21/17 at 7:30 am to GetCocky11
Thank you!
Posted on 9/21/17 at 7:50 am to vilma4prez
quote:
This series is great. My father was drafted towards the end but it was over before he saw combat. It's humbling to see what he went through. He was against the war.. all hippie and stuff.. But turned 18 in 1969. Our family were WWII vets. He wasn't going to dodge the call.
The stories told from both sides are fantastic.
I'm not seeing the political bias just .. war is hell. True patriots wanting to prove themselves and live up to the "greatest generation" expectations.
My dad was drafted but got shipped to Japan to work in a hospital. He never says anything about anything. Until I was in my senior year back in 1991. When you started getting peppered with recruitment calls. After the second or third "no thanks" from me, dad had enough and tore into that guy.
My dad is no hippy. But was definitely unhappy with his service and the government during the war.
Posted on 9/21/17 at 9:25 am to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
quote:
what they were asking us to do wasn't honourable...and for what purpose?"
This right here is the key... ambiguity and resolve...
Militarily we were messing them up... but we were not committed (politically...) to do whatever it takes to break their will to fight.
You cannot point to one military engagement and say, "this is the reason we lost"....
The problem was that the political leadership at the time was not fighting the same war as the North Vietnamese. We were fighting (politically speaking) to contain the Communists.. They were fighting to save their country and culture.
This SHOULD be the one of the major lessons from this conflict, DO NOT committ the resources (the largest part of which is lives...) to an endeavor when the opposition is willing to match and surpass your resolve.
This post was edited on 9/21/17 at 9:28 am
Posted on 9/21/17 at 9:39 am to GetCocky11
quote:
India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh were all British colonies as a single larger India.
Yes, and for the last 70 years, they have chose to go another direction, away from the British model and in pursuit of less democratic, equality-based government models. Hence the instability.
The point remains- former British colonies, as a whole, are far more advanced than former French and Spanish ones. A huge factor in this is the greater investment in the people and civic institutions, instead of raping the country blind. Compare Mexico to the U.S. and you'll see what I mean.
Posted on 9/21/17 at 9:42 am to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
quote:
Between 1965 and 1968 we dropped over a million tons of missiles, bombs and rockets on North Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia but we were never fully committed?
No. We never fully committed. Yeah, we dropped a shite ton of ordinance but how many soldiers did we send in to mop up? Zero. Because we were afraid of Chinese intervention. We never launched a large scale offensive into North Vietnam because we were afraid of escalating the conflict into a larger, and perhaps global war.
quote:
At the height of the war in 1968 we deployed over half a million soldiers but we were not fully committed.
At the height of World War II, there were 16.1 million American men and women in uniform. Between 11-12 million of those were deployed overseas. THAT is an example of total commitment.
This post was edited on 9/21/17 at 9:48 am
Posted on 9/21/17 at 9:45 am to RollTide1987
quote:
Because we were afraid of Chinese intervention.
I seem to recall in the 3rd episode that the Chinese committed troops to be stationed in Hanoi which enabled more NV to be committed to the front...
I may not remember that correctly tho...
Posted on 9/21/17 at 10:56 am to Blue Velvet
quote:
The real fear of policy makers was that successful independent socialist development in Vietnam
It wasnt a socialist movement it was communist..
quote:
According to Burns and Novick, the tragedy of the Vietnam War was a product of the political climate of the Cold War. The film makes a point of showing a map of the Soviet Union overrunning Eastern Europe and then attempting to do the same with Iran, Turkey and the Mediterranean, particularly in Greece.
This history is flawed, however, because in Greece it was the U.S. and UK that intervened militarily on behalf of royalist forces who had collaborated with the Nazis, while the Soviet Union maintained its pledge under the Yalta agreements not to back the left-wing rebels.
The USSR also only consolidated pro-communist regimes in Eastern Europe after the U.S. had implemented the Marshall Plan, interfered in election in Italy and infiltrated secret teams, led by ex-Nazi collaborators, to foment revolutions in Eastern Europe.
The documentary clearly states that the fear was more in China than USSR as the Russians were more concerned with Europe. The Chinese were directly supplying the Viet Mingh much like North Korea. The only difference was a lack of direct troop engagement.
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