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Superhero "magic"
Posted on 10/24/16 at 12:31 pm
Posted on 10/24/16 at 12:31 pm
Is it just me or is the introduction of magic into the superhero universe a huge negative? I've always thought the allure of superheroes were that they were idealized versions of what we would want ourselves to be (bigger, stronger, faster, impervious to pain, etc) But, each superhero has limitations and can be defeated which maintains dramatic tension (except Superman, which is why he is one of the least interesting characters, but that's an argument for another day). When a character can just magically produce or conjure the perfect solution to a given problem or have basically unlimited powers we are one small step from "Accio, Infinity Stones!" as the Avengers topple the House of Slytherin.*
The Doctor Strange movie to me looks like adult Harry Potter with fancier robes. Or am I misreading his character/powers?
*Time travel can be kind of similar to magic in this regard. The Flash TV show is about to lose me if they keep dicking around the characters histories/personalities.
The Doctor Strange movie to me looks like adult Harry Potter with fancier robes. Or am I misreading his character/powers?
*Time travel can be kind of similar to magic in this regard. The Flash TV show is about to lose me if they keep dicking around the characters histories/personalities.
14
Posted on 10/24/16 at 12:33 pm to SoFla Tideroller
quote:
Is it just me or is the introduction of magic into the superhero universe a huge negative?
Agreed.
Posted on 10/24/16 at 12:45 pm to SoFla Tideroller
I've never been a big fan of the magic based superheroes. The exceptions for me are Dr. Fate, Zatanna, and (once they converted him from a science monster to a magic monster) Swamp Thing.
There are writers like Alan Moore and Neil Gaiman who excel at writing magic based heroes, but most writers just fall back on the "here's a magical reason you've never heard of" device to forward or conclude the plot.
There are writers like Alan Moore and Neil Gaiman who excel at writing magic based heroes, but most writers just fall back on the "here's a magical reason you've never heard of" device to forward or conclude the plot.
Posted on 10/24/16 at 12:50 pm to SoFla Tideroller
Never been a huge fan of the Marvel cosmic stuff myself. It gets too convoluted.
Posted on 10/24/16 at 12:50 pm to SoFla Tideroller
quote:
But, each superhero has limitations and can be defeated which maintains dramatic tension (except Superman, which is why he is one of the least interesting characters, but that's an argument for another day).
One of Superman's major weaknesses is magic. It's why an unhinged Captain Marvel can beat his arse up and down and why he needs help against foes like Black Adam.
Posted on 10/24/16 at 12:59 pm to xenythx
It's why I've always thought that Green Lantern was a bad character. Just conjure up the perfect weapon/implement with the ring - end of story.
Posted on 10/24/16 at 1:37 pm to Dr RC
quote:
and why he needs help against foes like Black Adam.
Superman's biggest problem is different writers changing his power level.
Along those lines "magic" suffers from the same problem (as mentioned by an earlier poster). Some writers (Jim Butcher, for example) do an excellent job of creating a framework of magical laws/physics which then create limitations, others don't but rather rely on the Dragonball Z method of "evolving" a character into being suddenly powerful enough to accomplish whatever feat.
This post was edited on 10/24/16 at 1:41 pm
Posted on 10/24/16 at 1:43 pm to Bard
quote:
Some writers (Jim Butcher, for example) do an excellent job of creating a framework of magical laws/physics which then create limitations,
Upvote for Jim Butcher reference.
Posted on 10/24/16 at 2:06 pm to SoFla Tideroller
quote:
(except Superman, which is why he is one of the least interesting characters, but that's an argument for another day).
Now you gone done and triggered the frick out of Sentrius.
Posted on 10/24/16 at 2:25 pm to SoFla Tideroller
quote:
(except Superman, which is why he is one of the least interesting characters, but that's an argument for another day).
What. The. frick?
Posted on 10/24/16 at 2:37 pm to SoFla Tideroller
quote:
Is it just me or is the introduction of magic into the superhero universe a huge negative? I've always thought the allure of superheroes were that they were idealized versions of what we would want ourselves to be (bigger, stronger, faster, impervious to pain, etc) But, each superhero has limitations and can be defeated which maintains dramatic tension (except Superman, which is why he is one of the least interesting characters, but that's an argument for another day). When a character can just magically produce or conjure the perfect solution to a given problem or have basically unlimited powers we are one small step from "Accio, Infinity Stones!" as the Avengers topple the House of Slytherin.*
The Doctor Strange movie to me looks like adult Harry Potter with fancier robes. Or am I misreading his character/powers?
*Time travel can be kind of similar to magic in this regard. The Flash TV show is about to lose me if they keep dicking around the characters histories/personalities.
Just a note, but Marvel has said that the magic here is akin, or really IS, just really advanced science. Not sure if that holds water in the final product, but that was a comment early on.
Hopefully this is the case, because I don't agree wholly with your point, I do agree that some writers use Magic as a crutch because they lack creativity.
I guess we'll find out soon enough.
Posted on 10/24/16 at 2:47 pm to SoFla Tideroller
quote:
It's why I've always thought that Green Lantern was a bad character. Just conjure up the perfect weapon/implement with the ring - end of story.
Most versions of Green Lantern had limitations to their power (wood, yellow, time constraints). When that's in place and used well, you get great stories.
The same with magicians who have set powers and limitations. It's the guys with unlimited powers that don't do it for me. ("I never thought I would have to use this all-powerful incantation against this all-powerful foe, but here goes!")
Posted on 10/24/16 at 2:52 pm to SoFla Tideroller
Magic in marvel influences a lot so it has to be addressed at some point.
It has a lot of rules (when the writers remember) and a distressing amount of demonic interference.
This is bite the bullet time and roll with it for marvel studios.
It has a lot of rules (when the writers remember) and a distressing amount of demonic interference.
This is bite the bullet time and roll with it for marvel studios.
Posted on 10/24/16 at 3:01 pm to Fewer Kilometers
A lot of the better dr strange moments are when things get out of hand. Like the final act of world war hulk.
Posted on 10/24/16 at 3:17 pm to SoFla Tideroller
I think Magic is used as a convenient crutch in a lot of superhero stories.
Where all else fails...they're susceptible to magic. Just seems like lazy storytelling in an effort to humanize a superhero
Where all else fails...they're susceptible to magic. Just seems like lazy storytelling in an effort to humanize a superhero
Posted on 10/24/16 at 3:31 pm to SoFla Tideroller
I'm not totally disagreeing with you, here. But I wonder what the real end-result difference is between "magic" and "superpowers" anyway.
If a hero flies, does it matter if it's magic or if it's Kryptonian genetics?
If a hero can walk through dimensions, does it matter if it's magic or the X-gene?
If a hero can control lightning, does it matter if it's magic or an exo-suit?
The bottom line is humans can't do these things anyway. That's why superheroes are super. It's no less realistic or believable that the origin of these and similar powers is magic than any other source. It's all fantasy.
I just fail to see how the concept of magic is lame, but the concept of make-believe tech, genetics, aliens, etc. isn't.
Regarding being all-powerful... being magical doesn't mean there's always a way out of every situation. Most of these characters have limitations. I mean, what would Harry Potter be without his wand? Or Zatanna with her mouth taped shut?
If a hero flies, does it matter if it's magic or if it's Kryptonian genetics?
If a hero can walk through dimensions, does it matter if it's magic or the X-gene?
If a hero can control lightning, does it matter if it's magic or an exo-suit?
The bottom line is humans can't do these things anyway. That's why superheroes are super. It's no less realistic or believable that the origin of these and similar powers is magic than any other source. It's all fantasy.
I just fail to see how the concept of magic is lame, but the concept of make-believe tech, genetics, aliens, etc. isn't.
Regarding being all-powerful... being magical doesn't mean there's always a way out of every situation. Most of these characters have limitations. I mean, what would Harry Potter be without his wand? Or Zatanna with her mouth taped shut?
Posted on 10/24/16 at 3:39 pm to SpqrTiger
quote:
I just fail to see how the concept of magic is lame, but the concept of make-believe tech, genetics, aliens, etc. isn't.
Tech and genetics usually come with limitations. Magic heroes are more likely to have less or no limitations. There are few or no rules with magicians, which makes their stories prone to lazy writing.
Posted on 10/24/16 at 3:44 pm to SoFla Tideroller
I think you over estimate what strange can do. Also he fights forces that are also extremely powerful.
It all balances out I think. In the comics it works out.
It all balances out I think. In the comics it works out.
Posted on 10/24/16 at 4:40 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
Just a note, but Marvel has said that the magic here is akin, or really IS, just really advanced science.
I know that's been the Trendy McTrenderson thing in a ton of scifi lately to blur or explain magic with science (and there was a line in the first Thor movie about that), but I really think it would be a copout to go in that direction with Dr. Strange.
Posted on 10/24/16 at 4:57 pm to SoFla Tideroller
So Loki as a sorcerer is OK but Dr Strange is too much? Magic and cosmic forces were introduced before Strange, he is just the first to be so heavily depicted it. Plus they need someone of his caliber for Thanos.
If they were to do the fight with Thanos without all of the heavy hitters everyone would say, "they couldn't defeat Thanos without X" or "Thanos was way stronger than they depicted him".
Expanding into the magic and cosmic realm allows them to make things way more diverse.
If they were to do the fight with Thanos without all of the heavy hitters everyone would say, "they couldn't defeat Thanos without X" or "Thanos was way stronger than they depicted him".
Expanding into the magic and cosmic realm allows them to make things way more diverse.
This post was edited on 10/24/16 at 4:58 pm
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