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Everybody's a Critic: Or How to Define the M/TV Board - AO Scott, NYTimes

Posted on 2/2/16 at 10:38 am
Posted by Freauxzen
Utah
Member since Feb 2006
37233 posts
Posted on 2/2/16 at 10:38 am
Scott's a solid writer, and although a a misguided critic sometimes, he's relatively fair and in this piece even more so.

LINK

quote:

I am a critic. A scold, a snob, a paid hack intent on punishing artists and spoiling the fun of the public. That, at least, is the role I’m sometimes called upon to play. And in that capacity I’d like to say: Forget about the Oscars. It’s pretty much a foregone conclusion that you will, if history is any guide. The best-picture winners that live up to the name — “The Godfather,” “The Apartment,” “The Hurt Locker” — are outliers in a field of bloated, flash-in-the-pan mediocrities. “Around the World in 80 Days”? “Out of Africa”? “Crash”? Please. Meanwhile, the pantheon of all-time great films is largely a roster of the snubbed, from “Citizen Kane” to “Do the Right Thing” to “Boyhood.” The best film in any given year is almost guaranteed to be one that didn’t win, or one that wasn’t nominated at all.


Fair enough.

quote:

On the Internet, everyone is a critic — a Yelp-fueled takedown artist, an Amazon scholar, a cheerleader empowered by social media to Like and to Share. The inflated, always suspect authority of ink-stained wretches like me has been leveled by digital anarchy. Who needs a cranky nag when you have a friendly algorithm telling you, based on your previous purchases, that there is something You May Also Like, and legions of Facebook friends affirming the wisdom of your choice? The days of the all-powerful critic are over. But that figure — high priest or petty dictator, destroying and consecrating reputations with the stroke of a pen — was always a bit of a myth, an allegorical monster conjured up by timid artists and their insecure admirers. Criticism has always been a fundamentally democratic undertaking. It is an endless conversation, rather than a series of pronouncements. It is the debate that begins when you walk out of the theater or the museum, either with your friends or in the private chat room of your own head. It’s not me telling you what to think; it’s you and me talking. That was true before the Internet, but the rise of social media has had the thrilling, confusing effect of making the conversation literal.


Good point there. I think people make declarations or get frustrated with something that is repetitive (does the same Lost argument happen every time?) However, it's in the argument itself, even if it's mostly the same, that we may find out something new.
quote:


Like every other form of democracy, criticism is a messy, contentious business, in which the rules are as much in dispute as the outcomes and the philosophical foundations are fragile if not vaporous. We all like different things. Each of us is blessed with a snowflake-special consciousness, an apparatus of pleasure and perception that is ours alone. But we also cluster together in communities of taste that can be as prickly and polarized as the other tribes with which we identify. We are protective of our pleasures, and resent it when anyone tries to mock or mess with them.


I like that he points to the major contention. At least for me, the question is between taste and quality. The rules for both are just impossible to determine. It makes no sense sometimes what we like and dislike. Or even how to judge the "goodness" or quality of something. I think that's what every single argument is about in terms of film and this board.....

quote:

And yet our ways of thinking about this fundamental human attribute amount to a heap of contradictions. There is no argument, but then again there is only argument. We grant that our preferences are subjective, but we’re rarely content to leave them in the private realm. It’s not enough to say “I like that” or “It wasn’t really my cup of tea.” We insist on stronger assertions, on objective statements. “That was great! That was terrible!”


Ends strong though:

quote:

This means, above all, that our job is to think. As consumers of culture, we are lulled into passivity or, at best, prodded toward a state of pseudo-semi-self-awareness, encouraged toward either the defensive group identity of fandom or a shallow, half-ironic eclecticism. We graze, we binge, we pick up and discard aesthetic experiences as if they were cheap toys. Which they frequently are — mass-produced widgets from the corporate assembly line.


quote:

Enough of that! It’s the mission of art to free our minds, and the task of criticism to figure out what to do with that freedom. That everyone is a critic means that we are each capable of thinking against our own prejudices, of balancing skepticism with open-mindedness, of sharpening our dulled and glutted senses and battling the intellectual inertia that surrounds us. We need to put our remarkable minds to use and to pay our own experience the honor of taking it seriously. The real culture war (the one that never ends) is between the human intellect and its equally human enemies: sloth, cliché, pretension, cant. Between creativity and conformity, between the comforts of the familiar and the shock of the new. To be a critic is to be a soldier in this fight, a defender of the life of art and a champion of the art of living. It’s not just a job, in other words.


But oh the irony, since he got paid to write that too.
Posted by Baloo
Formerly MDGeaux
Member since Sep 2003
49645 posts
Posted on 2/2/16 at 10:53 am to
I do like the democratic nature of critical debates in the internet era. Anyone can contribute, but let's not pretend everyone's voice holds equal value. Your opinion is only as good as your argument is persuasive. Shouting at someone "This stinks!" doesn't convince anyone, you need to articulate why it stinks (or is great). And that is the true value of the democratic internet, we get wildly disparate voices with different points of view all subscribing to a different aesthetic.

I find the people most like to bad-mouth "critics" are the ones who care the most about what they have to say, despite their protestations. I mean, the typical fan who bashes stupid critics who don't like their preferred blockbuster movie, as if critics are one monolithic group, are the ones who most crave their approval. Otherwise, why complain about them? And I think concerning yourself with getting someone to like what you like is largely a waste of time.

What is interesting is the why. And it can cause people to look at things in a different way. I tend to view reviews AFTER I've seen a movie because its like having a conversation with a friend. I have my impressions, and then they have their own argument, and then I mentally engage with their writing (sometimes I'll comment). It's why I miss The Dissolve and the Spoiler Space so much.

A good critic gives us tools to help us evaluate and interpret film. It's not about telling us what to think, it's about giving us a path through the thicket, to start to come up with coherent thoughts. Or maybe we want to leave the path and forge are own, that's okay too. But the value is in the conversation itself, so long as we actually read and honestly engage with what others are saying. Stop, consider, think.
Posted by Josh Fenderman
Ron Don Volante's PlayPen
Member since Jul 2011
6704 posts
Posted on 2/2/16 at 11:51 am to
quote:

frustrated with something that is repetitive (does the same Lost argument happen every time?)

You mean like Breesus in any South Park thread? Or SFP in any Lost or TD thread?
Posted by CocomoLSU
Inside your dome.
Member since Feb 2004
150535 posts
Posted on 2/2/16 at 12:20 pm to
quote:

I do like the democratic nature of critical debates in the internet era. Anyone can contribute, but let's not pretend everyone's voice holds equal value. Your opinion is only as good as your argument is persuasive. Shouting at someone "This stinks!" doesn't convince anyone, you need to articulate why it stinks (or is great). And that is the true value of the democratic internet, we get wildly disparate voices with different points of view all subscribing to a different aesthetic.

Agreed. I've been known to be long-winded a time or two on here. But most of the time that's because I am trying to articulate my side of the discussion/argument as clearly as possible, rather than just taking the position of "That sucks because I said so." That's one of the main problems with anonymous internet bullshite...people can say whatever they want with (almost) no repercussion. And people get used to that, so when it comes time to actually critique something, instead of making a thought-out post about it, they'll pull a fly-by with the whole "That fricking sucked" or "That was the best thing I've ever seen!"

Which leads to the next point. For whatever reason, the internet has brought about this crazy use of hyperbole that (it seems like) isn't ever going away. Everything has to be the best ever, or the worst ever, or some variation of that. There's less room for middle-of-the-road things anymore, let alone middle-of-the-road discussions. Very seldom do you see any "Yeah, that episode was pretty good" or "That movie was decent." EVERYthing has to be the BEST or WORST, or on some list, ALL the time.
quote:

I find the people most like to bad-mouth "critics" are the ones who care the most about what they have to say, despite their protestations. I mean, the typical fan who bashes stupid critics who don't like their preferred blockbuster movie, as if critics are one monolithic group, are the ones who most crave their approval. Otherwise, why complain about them? And I think concerning yourself with getting someone to like what you like is largely a waste of time.

I agree completely on that. Most of the time, the people quoting the critics (and either praising or badmouthing them) are the ones reading the reviews in the first place. I very rarely in my life have ever given a single frick what "critics" say about a movie or TV show (or anything else, for that matter). However, I do care what my peers think, and that includes a lot of people on this board. So on the one hand, the fact that "everybody's a critic" can be a bad/annoying thing, but on the other hand it can be a blessing. There are certain movies or shows that I would've likely never come across had it not been on the advice of this board. And I like that. You just sometimes have to wade through the bullshite to find decent, well-intentioned responses.
quote:

What is interesting is the why. And it can cause people to look at things in a different way. I tend to view reviews AFTER I've seen a movie because its like having a conversation with a friend. I have my impressions, and then they have their own argument, and then I mentally engage with their writing (sometimes I'll comment). It's why I miss The Dissolve and the Spoiler Space so much.

One thing I like to do is when I am watching a popular show (or movie) after the fact, I'll come back and google the episode discussion thread and see how people on here reacted to things or what they had to say about it. There are a lot of people on here whose opinions I appreciate, so like you said, going back and reading through old threads like that is sort of a way for me to "discuss" things with this board (or at the very least compare my thoughts to the general thoughts of the board).
quote:

A good critic gives us tools to help us evaluate and interpret film. It's not about telling us what to think, it's about giving us a path through the thicket, to start to come up with coherent thoughts. Or maybe we want to leave the path and forge are own, that's okay too. But the value is in the conversation itself, so long as we actually read and honestly engage with what others are saying. Stop, consider, think.

Exactly. It's one reason why someone like me is more likely to stop and read long posts on here, whereas others may skip it as they fly by with a "tl;dr" comment. I'm definitely interested in hearing why people like or hate something. And although I am super hard-headed sometimes, I like to think that for the most part I am open to changing my mind if I can get on board with someone else's argument about something. And there have been times when people have persuaded me to change my thinking about something, whether it be a book, show, movie, etc.

That's one reason why, although this board has its own bullshite too, it's the best board on TD.
Posted by Cooter Davenport
Austin, TX
Member since Apr 2012
9006 posts
Posted on 2/2/16 at 12:39 pm to
I agree with his point about people's tendency to declare things THE GREATEST EVER or THE WORST.

Take Plan 9 From Outer Space, for example. It's supposedly the WORST FILM EVER, but actually, it's so bad that's it's pretty entertaining because it's so bad, which makes it worth watching. Conversely, Crash, which won an Oscar, is a film I can't even bring myself to watch again because it's so gratingly bad while posturing as so wise that the juxtaposition between what it actually is and what it's pretending to be makes me nauseous.
Posted by Freauxzen
Utah
Member since Feb 2006
37233 posts
Posted on 2/2/16 at 12:47 pm to
quote:

I do like the democratic nature of critical debates in the internet era. Anyone can contribute, but let's not pretend everyone's voice holds equal value. Your opinion is only as good as your argument is persuasive. Shouting at someone "This stinks!" doesn't convince anyone, you need to articulate why it stinks (or is great). And that is the true value of the democratic internet, we get wildly disparate voices with different points of view all subscribing to a different aesthetic.


Good point.

quote:

I find the people most like to bad-mouth "critics" are the ones who care the most about what they have to say, despite their protestations. I mean, the typical fan who bashes stupid critics who don't like their preferred blockbuster movie, as if critics are one monolithic group, are the ones who most crave their approval. Otherwise, why complain about them? And I think concerning yourself with getting someone to like what you like is largely a waste of time.

What is interesting is the why. And it can cause people to look at things in a different way. I tend to view reviews AFTER I've seen a movie because its like having a conversation with a friend. I have my impressions, and then they have their own argument, and then I mentally engage with their writing (sometimes I'll comment). It's why I miss The Dissolve and the Spoiler Space so much.

A good critic gives us tools to help us evaluate and interpret film. It's not about telling us what to think, it's about giving us a path through the thicket, to start to come up with coherent thoughts. Or maybe we want to leave the path and forge are own, that's okay too. But the value is in the conversation itself, so long as we actually read and honestly engage with what others are saying. Stop, consider, think.


Exactly. They give us the language to talk. I think their opinion is valid, but its how we approach. Why wouldn't you trust the guy who makes 1000 chairs a year to make the best chair. It's the same with understanding film. Yes, I trust the guy who watches 1000 movies a year more than other people. But trust means that the opinion is honest, well thought out, and explained. Trust doesn't mean I'll agree.
Posted by Freauxzen
Utah
Member since Feb 2006
37233 posts
Posted on 2/2/16 at 12:51 pm to
quote:

I agree with his point about people's tendency to declare things THE GREATEST EVER or THE WORST.



I think it's interesting how the internet did this. Outside of the constant parade of lists, it's the ability to "make people know the thing you like is awesome," or "make people know the thing you hate is terrible," I think, like serial social media posters, it's more about the person saying "THE GREATEST EVER," than it is about the film being the greatest thing ever. Deep down, they know it isn't the greatest, they just get really excited because they can tell people they like something.

I also think this drives the critical responses of "You just don't want to like this movie," or "It's the cool thing to hate on this movie right now": I really dislike those responses. Such a cop out that argues that something basically MUST be good, or MUST be bad. People find it hard to accept that their "loved," thing maybe isn't so "loved."
Posted by CocomoLSU
Inside your dome.
Member since Feb 2004
150535 posts
Posted on 2/2/16 at 12:58 pm to
quote:

I also think this drives the critical responses of "You just don't want to like this movie," or "It's the cool thing to hate on this movie right now": I really dislike those responses. Such a cop out that argues that something basically MUST be good, or MUST be bad. People find it hard to accept that their "loved," thing maybe isn't so "loved."

I agree with you on that in principle, but there are definitely times when hating on something (moreso than liking something, although that happens too) becomes sort of the cool thing to do, and a type of groupthink begins to happen.
Posted by Freauxzen
Utah
Member since Feb 2006
37233 posts
Posted on 2/2/16 at 1:06 pm to
quote:

I agree with you on that in principle, but there are definitely times when hating on something (moreso than liking something, although that happens too) becomes sort of the cool thing to do, and a type of groupthink begins to happen.


Those are so rare though. And it should be categorized differently than groupthink. If I think the acting is bad, and you think the acting is bad, and Baloo thinks the acting is bad, we aren't in groupthink, we just all see the same thing.

I think it also comes down to the language and how we talk. I think there is a common phenomena, especially with film, where we know we like or don't like something, we just can't pinpoint it. Sometimes it's something we can't describe, sometimes we lack the language or the knowledge (people who don't watch/study film), but it's something. I'll admit that sometimes when I get really into an argument it's because deep down inside something struck me about the film or show (in a good or bad way), but I'm just not quite there yet to know what it is. Discussion helps one look at all the angles, all the outcomes, and figure it out. That's a purpose of an argument or discussion as well.
Posted by Breesus
House of the Rising Sun
Member since Jan 2010
66982 posts
Posted on 2/2/16 at 1:15 pm to
I fully expected to hate the article, but i actually liked it alot. I love the debate and the bullshite we get into on this board. That's fun. The poster bashing is obnoxious, but sometimes we get into actual fun debates about different shows and movies and I really enjoy those.

The jumping to extremes almost immediately is an interesting product of the internet age. Louis CK does a great bit about how we are killing the English language because non of our words mean anything anymore.

NSFW Language Louis CK: Going right for the top shelf with our words now

quote:

You mean like Breesus in any South Park thread?


Get over yourself. You want a SP circle jerk, too bad. I always lay out my reasons and point out the things i like and didnt like. Some people have engaged me in fun discussion about the differences between new and old south park and why it is that way and what the new format brings or lacks, etc...

Some of yall would rather bash me and not discuss the point. To each his own. Sorry about your crazy small penis that makes you insecure. Also, just for good measure, Dotty dropped it on purpose, Drive sucked, JGL is a dogshit actor, and Idris Elba should never work again.
This post was edited on 2/2/16 at 1:15 pm
Posted by LSUBoo
Knoxville, TN
Member since Mar 2006
101914 posts
Posted on 2/2/16 at 1:16 pm to
quote:

Meanwhile, the pantheon of all-time great films is largely a roster of the snubbed, from “Citizen Kane” to “Do the Right Thing” to “Boyhood.”


Come on now, Boyhood was terrible. If it wasn't for the gimmick, no one would have ever released that movie.

quote:

We all like different things. Each of us is blessed with a snowflake-special consciousness, an apparatus of pleasure and perception that is ours alone. But we also cluster together in communities of taste that can be as prickly and polarized as the other tribes with which we identify. We are protective of our pleasures, and resent it when anyone tries to mock or mess with them.


Touche', Mr. Writer Man.
Posted by Josh Fenderman
Ron Don Volante's PlayPen
Member since Jul 2011
6704 posts
Posted on 2/2/16 at 1:30 pm to
quote:

Get over yourself. You want a SP circle jerk, too bad. I always lay out my reasons and point out the things i like and didnt like. Some people have engaged me in fun discussion about the differences between new and old south park and why it is that way and what the new format brings or lacks, etc... Some of yall would rather bash me and not discuss the point. To each his own. Sorry about your crazy small penis that makes you insecure. Also, just for good measure, Dotty dropped it on purpose, Drive sucked, JGL is a dogshit actor, and Idris Elba should never work again.

I guess I touched a nerve

I posted that because your reasons are always repetitive
Posted by athenslife101
Member since Feb 2013
18551 posts
Posted on 2/2/16 at 1:33 pm to
All I'll say on critics is I listen to a lot of them, but there are 2-3 I trust. They have 20-30 years of practical experience. I certainly don't agree with everything they say and sometimes I think their opinions on movies are dead wrong, but they are "experts."
This post was edited on 2/2/16 at 1:39 pm
Posted by Breesus
House of the Rising Sun
Member since Jan 2010
66982 posts
Posted on 2/2/16 at 1:35 pm to
quote:

I guess I touched a nerve


nope
Posted by Dam Guide
Member since Sep 2005
15497 posts
Posted on 2/2/16 at 1:47 pm to
So now we need to critique people critiquing?
Posted by Baloo
Formerly MDGeaux
Member since Sep 2003
49645 posts
Posted on 2/2/16 at 2:19 pm to
I do think groupthink and backlashes happen. It would be silly to argue otherwise. And sometimes, people just like being contrarian. That said, I feel that most of the major voices on this board are secure enough in their opinions that they usually don't try and put up a falase front. Most opinions, on this board at least, are honestly held.

I'll never understand the online trend to try and pretend you have an opinion you don't actually have. Then it's like "I fooled you!" Well, of course you did. Why would I have any reason to doubt that the argument you made is dishonest? I take people's opinions at face value because, well, honestly it doesn't matter if they are real or not. At the end of the day, only the argument itself matters.

Weak minds argue personalities. Argue ideas instead.
Posted by Cooter Davenport
Austin, TX
Member since Apr 2012
9006 posts
Posted on 2/2/16 at 2:22 pm to
quote:

Come on now, Boyhood was terrible. If it wasn't for the gimmick, no one would have ever released that movie.


Boyhood is judged WITHIN the limitation of the gimmick though. I mean, that's the only fair way to approach it. You are so limited in what you can accomplish given that you have 2 real actors and a cast of kids you cast as kids with no possible way to know whether they'd become good actors or what they'd even look like. Plus, the gimmick also limits the kind of story you can tell in the first place.

I think he deserves credit for the gimmick, first of all, and second given those constraints I think he did a really good job of 1) triggering a huge overwhelming feeling of nostalgia in me - it was like the Don Draper Carousel pitch made into a film and 2) I connected with the overarching theme that a lot of what makes your life what it is and frames what you do and don't end up doing is just the simple, sometimes cruel and sometimes beautiful timing of things, which is really out of your control.

I mean, best ever? No. But terrible? C'mon!
Posted by CajunAlum Tiger Fan
The Great State of Louisiana
Member since Jan 2008
7870 posts
Posted on 2/2/16 at 3:43 pm to
quote:

Agreed. I've been known to be long-winded a time or two on here. But most of the time that's because I am trying to articulate my side of the discussion/argument as clearly as possible


At least you write like a normal human being speaks, unlike many here that post in nonsensical critic-speak.




Posted by mizzoubuckeyeiowa
Member since Nov 2015
35430 posts
Posted on 2/2/16 at 4:01 pm to
Greatest Ever or Worst Ever is a bore.

But we do it in sports (GOAT) and everything else.

It's all preference and preferences change (even among ourselves) - there are movies I loved years ago at a different time in my life - that I now wonder why I loved that movie so much?

Tastes are not only different but they grow, change and evolve based on more knowledge and information and where you are at in life.

The best thing about internet debates or conversations about movies is to be exposed to a film and learn something new that you might not have before.
This post was edited on 2/2/16 at 4:03 pm
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