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DoD Princess and the Queen discussion (SPOILERS!!!)
Posted on 12/4/13 at 4:45 pm
Posted on 12/4/13 at 4:45 pm
Starting this for those of us that just powered through this story. First thoughts... I want to see Prince Daemon and Prince Aemon fight on Dragonback!!! Should do a HBO special on this story for that reason alone.
Rhaenyra seemed doomed from the start and I feel she was outclassed at almost every turn. I felt like I was supposed to root for her, because Aegon II sucked, bought I was pulling for her kids and Aegon's brothers more than them.
This post was edited on 12/4/13 at 5:22 pm
Posted on 12/4/13 at 4:54 pm to Mr. Wayne
Come on man, the title should be "The Princess and the Queen" before people get confused with ADWD. With that said, here we go...
The tone and manner that the story was written in is very reminiscent of Martin's rambling historical speak in Dunk and Egg and Tyrion's POV regarding historical events. I enjoyed the fact that we weren't subjected to major gaps due to POV story telling. It was a bit draining to go through all of the names, especially the Targ lines given the use of the same first names over and over again, but that is to be expected with any of Martin's writings. Some key points:
DRAGON'S SEEDS - The "seeds" were the most interesting and useful portion of the novella given that we have had virtually no knowledge as to how the Targaryen's used dragons in combat (other that roasting suckas alive) nor how they chose a dragon. We knew from ADWD that they were fickle creatures (RIP Quentyn) but I had no idea that it was such a trial and error process with regard to the seeds. Naturally the true blooded Targs had no problem finding a lizard given that they usually had their own eggs from birth, but for the seeds it is down right dangerous. I think this will present a really difficult problem for Dany given that she will be going through white haired Targ wannabes like crazy before actually finding anyone to pair with. There is hope for Dany given that Nettle was able to trick her dragon by feeding it and gaining familiarity but I wonder how well that will go over. Plus do you really want to see Ben Plumm on a dragon?
The story also added a bit of intrigue with regard to who in the current story could be a possible seed to ride the dragons. If you will recall Corlys Velaryon was the lord of Driftmark, the other largest island in the Blackwater. What is not commonly known is that House Velaryon are long time common allies with the Targs from Valryia. Driftmark is crawling with dragon's seed, such as Addam Velaryon fka Addam of Hull, the rider of Seasmoke. So naturally, Corlys decided to basically adopt Addam because he shared some trace of Valyrian blood, and made him the heir to Driftmark. So you are probably asking yourself, "Where do I know that name Driftmark from?" The answer is that it belongs in the title of a well known handsome bastard, a bastard that just happened to abscond with the newly built royal navy. I give you Aurane Waters, the bastard of Driftmark and one of a handful of likely Dragon's Seed candidates.
DRAGONS IN COMBAT - The manner in which dragons fight has been glossed over quite a bit in the books. We knew that they burned Harrenhal, we knew that they roasted whole armies at will, but we didn't know how they fought with each other or how vulnerable their riders are. The novella was able to layout a lot those technicalities especially showing that even dragons can be killed by people. They aren't as impervious as the stories of Aegon the Conqueror make them out to be. This will be especially telling when Dany attempts to use her dragons in battle. We know from the novella that dragons need to be a fairly decent size before they are useful in combat, but does that translate into modern dragon combat. Dany has the only three dragons in the world. There are no other dragons to compete with (unless Cannibal and Sheepstealer are still alive) so their usefulness against foot soldiers and troops still make them quite formidable.
I'll have some more thoughts later but I want to put these out there!
The tone and manner that the story was written in is very reminiscent of Martin's rambling historical speak in Dunk and Egg and Tyrion's POV regarding historical events. I enjoyed the fact that we weren't subjected to major gaps due to POV story telling. It was a bit draining to go through all of the names, especially the Targ lines given the use of the same first names over and over again, but that is to be expected with any of Martin's writings. Some key points:
DRAGON'S SEEDS - The "seeds" were the most interesting and useful portion of the novella given that we have had virtually no knowledge as to how the Targaryen's used dragons in combat (other that roasting suckas alive) nor how they chose a dragon. We knew from ADWD that they were fickle creatures (RIP Quentyn) but I had no idea that it was such a trial and error process with regard to the seeds. Naturally the true blooded Targs had no problem finding a lizard given that they usually had their own eggs from birth, but for the seeds it is down right dangerous. I think this will present a really difficult problem for Dany given that she will be going through white haired Targ wannabes like crazy before actually finding anyone to pair with. There is hope for Dany given that Nettle was able to trick her dragon by feeding it and gaining familiarity but I wonder how well that will go over. Plus do you really want to see Ben Plumm on a dragon?
The story also added a bit of intrigue with regard to who in the current story could be a possible seed to ride the dragons. If you will recall Corlys Velaryon was the lord of Driftmark, the other largest island in the Blackwater. What is not commonly known is that House Velaryon are long time common allies with the Targs from Valryia. Driftmark is crawling with dragon's seed, such as Addam Velaryon fka Addam of Hull, the rider of Seasmoke. So naturally, Corlys decided to basically adopt Addam because he shared some trace of Valyrian blood, and made him the heir to Driftmark. So you are probably asking yourself, "Where do I know that name Driftmark from?" The answer is that it belongs in the title of a well known handsome bastard, a bastard that just happened to abscond with the newly built royal navy. I give you Aurane Waters, the bastard of Driftmark and one of a handful of likely Dragon's Seed candidates.
DRAGONS IN COMBAT - The manner in which dragons fight has been glossed over quite a bit in the books. We knew that they burned Harrenhal, we knew that they roasted whole armies at will, but we didn't know how they fought with each other or how vulnerable their riders are. The novella was able to layout a lot those technicalities especially showing that even dragons can be killed by people. They aren't as impervious as the stories of Aegon the Conqueror make them out to be. This will be especially telling when Dany attempts to use her dragons in battle. We know from the novella that dragons need to be a fairly decent size before they are useful in combat, but does that translate into modern dragon combat. Dany has the only three dragons in the world. There are no other dragons to compete with (unless Cannibal and Sheepstealer are still alive) so their usefulness against foot soldiers and troops still make them quite formidable.
I'll have some more thoughts later but I want to put these out there!
Posted on 12/4/13 at 5:04 pm to Mr. Wayne
Yup, an HBO special would do that battle justice...as well as the other, massive dragon fights that happened. fricking awesome to picture while reading. I really enjoyed it.
Larys = the Varys of this story. Both are sneaky bastards who knew the way through the tunnels at Kings Landing. Larys's last name was Strong...and people are speculating that Varys is either a Targ or a Blackfyre; but it makes more sense to me if he was a descendent of Larys and learned the hidden ways of the castle through family history. But I did find it interesting that in the whole story the Blackfyre name is not mentioned, but it is in the Dunk and Egg stories. I dunno. Just me.
And I'm going to have to read again: There was that one character that went off somewhere with three dragon eggs...bet those were Dany's eggs.
Larys = the Varys of this story. Both are sneaky bastards who knew the way through the tunnels at Kings Landing. Larys's last name was Strong...and people are speculating that Varys is either a Targ or a Blackfyre; but it makes more sense to me if he was a descendent of Larys and learned the hidden ways of the castle through family history. But I did find it interesting that in the whole story the Blackfyre name is not mentioned, but it is in the Dunk and Egg stories. I dunno. Just me.
And I'm going to have to read again: There was that one character that went off somewhere with three dragon eggs...bet those were Dany's eggs.
Posted on 12/4/13 at 5:07 pm to Papercutninja
LEFTOVER DRAGONS - We know from the novella that Vhagar was one of the original dragons ridden in the conquest by Viseyna. According to AWOIAF, it was born in 51 BC and died in 130 AL making it roughly 180 years old. Given that it clearly showed no signs of slowing down, I think it is completely feasible that Sheepstealer and Cannibal could still be alive and viable. The question remains, where are they? Is one residing in Crackclaw Point being hidden by Targ loyalists? Is one hidden at Winterfell making the hot springs warm? Who could know for sure? Where does a girl on a dragon go to when the world decides that it hates dragons? The idea that there could be two fully grown dragons still in play mean that ASOIAF could get flipped on its head at any time.
There is definitely a need for a re-read, there are a lot of moving parts with this one and I don't think that they were haphazardly thrown in there. I think Martin is trying to show us something.
There is definitely a need for a re-read, there are a lot of moving parts with this one and I don't think that they were haphazardly thrown in there. I think Martin is trying to show us something.
Posted on 12/4/13 at 5:21 pm to Papercutninja
quote:
The tone and manner that the story was written in is very reminiscent of Martin's rambling historical speak in Dunk and Egg and Tyrion's POV regarding historical events.
I almost expected the story to end with something like "Sam closed the book and looked out the window at the growing darkness of the evening engulfing the world outside..."
quote:
It was a bit draining to go through all of the names, especially the Targ lines given the use of the same first names over and over again,
This shite drove me crazy and I kept checking back to see who the hell I was reading about.
quote:
I give you Aurane Waters, the bastard of Driftmark and one of a handful of likely Dragon's Seed candidates.
Damn, good catch. The dragonseed explanation was pretty interesting and I had a feeling that it was going to play a big role later, too.
quote:
The manner in which dragons fight has been glossed over quite a bit in the books. We knew that they burned Harrenhal, we knew that they roasted whole armies at will, but we didn't know how they fought with each other or how vulnerable their riders are.
Oh, man, it was great the way it was all described. I was also surprised that Harrenhal was burned already.
He didn't describe the Iron Throne, though. Supposedly Aegon the Conquerer was only 200 years ago, but I thought the tradition of the Iron Throne began with him. Couldn't have been THAT many swords welded together yet, that was cutting Rhaenyra up.
OK, I originally thought this took place about 1000 years before GoT, but the ASOIAF website says 169, give or take:
quote:
The Dance of Dragons began in 129 AL, one hundred and sixty-nine years before the events of A Game of Thrones. It was the conflict that saw most of the lesser branches of House Targaryen and almost all of its dragons destroyed.
This post was edited on 12/4/13 at 5:28 pm
Posted on 12/4/13 at 5:26 pm to Papercutninja
Where does a dragon go? Valyria. That's where.
Posted on 12/4/13 at 5:29 pm to Mr. Wayne
And it seems to me that there were more eggs than just the 3 that did not get broken...
So you think Netty went to Valyria?
So you think Netty went to Valyria?
Posted on 12/4/13 at 5:38 pm to Mr. Wayne
I like that. Maybe the dragons feel an instinctual pull back to the motherland.
Posted on 12/4/13 at 11:13 pm to Papercutninja
We keep hearing how Valyria is cursed and how all sailors who sail there never return. Maybe that's because they get torched the second they get spotted by a dragon. (I don't believe Euron made it there. I think he found the horn elsewhere)
Posted on 12/5/13 at 7:43 am to Mr. Wayne
Where do I go to read about this?
Posted on 12/5/13 at 8:47 am to CootKilla
Go to read about what in particular?
Posted on 12/5/13 at 9:17 am to CCT
The new novella. I tried downloading the epub from the crackpipe thread but I cant open it.
Posted on 12/5/13 at 10:36 am to Mr. Wayne
Just a general question: how long does it take to read PatQ?
Posted on 12/5/13 at 10:45 am to ladytiger118
Couple hours. I read an hour before bed. And finished it at work the next day around noon. (Wasn't getting much done )
Posted on 12/5/13 at 11:39 am to Mr. Wayne
It ate up an entire afternoon of productivity.
Posted on 12/5/13 at 12:16 pm to Papercutninja
Yep, same here. Total was about 3.5 hours or so since I kept going back and checking on shite.
Also, just watched Episode 4 (or 3?) from season 3 and Joffrey told Margery about the brother murdering the sister that is at the end of the novella. It was cool knowing the details of what he was talking about.
Cootkilla, you need the ePub plugin to open that. The PDF should open normally, if you got that.
Also, just watched Episode 4 (or 3?) from season 3 and Joffrey told Margery about the brother murdering the sister that is at the end of the novella. It was cool knowing the details of what he was talking about.
Cootkilla, you need the ePub plugin to open that. The PDF should open normally, if you got that.
Posted on 12/5/13 at 3:13 pm to CCT
Just finished reading it. The description of nettles sure sounds like arya. There are definitely still more dragons and dragon eggs out there.
Posted on 12/5/13 at 11:16 pm to CCT
quote:
But I did find it interesting that in the whole story the Blackfyre name is not mentioned, but it is in the Dunk and Egg stories. I dunno. Just me.
Blackfyre was just the Bastard name taken by (blanking on the name) after his father legitamized him and gave him the sword Blackfyre. So they didn't even exist during this story.
As for Nettie, I just kept thinking Children of the Forest when they described her. I just finished the story, but didn't Aemon supposedly go to the God's Eye (where children of the forest) reside at some point in the story.
Posted on 12/6/13 at 12:27 am to DestrehanTiger
Yeah, one of them went to the children of the forest. Could have been Aemon...or any of the others with similar phonetics...don't remember, and I'm going to start a re-read this weekend. I just powered through Season 3 and need a GoT break.
Posted on 12/6/13 at 10:52 am to DestrehanTiger
Addam Velaryon is the one that consulted with the green seer before he died at the second battle at Tumbleston.
I keep going back to Cannibal for some reason. Why mention a dragon that is so ferocious yet never has anything to do with the story? It is also never mentioned what happened to him along with Nettles and Sheepstealer. I'm assuming Silverwing is going to be killed along with her dragonrider Ulf the White by Aegon III.
Even if the dragons were hiding in Westeros, there would be traces of them for people to discover. I'm putting money on a return to Valyria as it would fit the "curse" of no ship returning from a voyage there. Very possible Nettles was with child when she left Westeros, shacking up with Daemon Targaryen, which would have produced an even more Targ blooded child. I am seriously hoping Valyria comes into the story soon. So much that could be learned and discovered there by Dany that might make her not such a terrible character.
I keep going back to Cannibal for some reason. Why mention a dragon that is so ferocious yet never has anything to do with the story? It is also never mentioned what happened to him along with Nettles and Sheepstealer. I'm assuming Silverwing is going to be killed along with her dragonrider Ulf the White by Aegon III.
Even if the dragons were hiding in Westeros, there would be traces of them for people to discover. I'm putting money on a return to Valyria as it would fit the "curse" of no ship returning from a voyage there. Very possible Nettles was with child when she left Westeros, shacking up with Daemon Targaryen, which would have produced an even more Targ blooded child. I am seriously hoping Valyria comes into the story soon. So much that could be learned and discovered there by Dany that might make her not such a terrible character.
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