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Did surviving Jedi, New/Rebel Republic ever figure out how Palpatine pulled off the coup?
Posted on 8/1/17 at 1:35 am
Posted on 8/1/17 at 1:35 am
Think about it from the people of the galaxy's point of view. No one really knows what the frick happened in how Palpatine seized power in his coup and who he manipulated to destroy the jedi. Or even if the Jedi were good people.
For instance I don't see any way how Obi Wan and Yoda could not connect the dots after they knew that there was bio chips in the clones, knew Dooku manipulated the republic and Jedi into taking control of the Clone army and waging war and they could've eventually deduced that Dooku was working with someone inside the republic.
For instance, Count Dooku flat-out tells Obi-Wan who Palpatine really is in Attack of the Clones, but Obi-Wan doesn't believe him. In Attack of the Clones when Obi-Wan is restrained on Geonosis, Count Dooku talks with him. He tells Obi-Wan that "the republic is now under the control of a Dark Lord of the Sith". Obi-Wan rejects the idea and at the end of the movie he even tells Yoda and Mace Windu about what Dooku told him, and they are also very skeptical. That was the biggest hint there was a traitor inside the republic and they did nothing.
For instance I don't see any way how Obi Wan and Yoda could not connect the dots after they knew that there was bio chips in the clones, knew Dooku manipulated the republic and Jedi into taking control of the Clone army and waging war and they could've eventually deduced that Dooku was working with someone inside the republic.
For instance, Count Dooku flat-out tells Obi-Wan who Palpatine really is in Attack of the Clones, but Obi-Wan doesn't believe him. In Attack of the Clones when Obi-Wan is restrained on Geonosis, Count Dooku talks with him. He tells Obi-Wan that "the republic is now under the control of a Dark Lord of the Sith". Obi-Wan rejects the idea and at the end of the movie he even tells Yoda and Mace Windu about what Dooku told him, and they are also very skeptical. That was the biggest hint there was a traitor inside the republic and they did nothing.
6
Posted on 8/1/17 at 1:46 am to Sentrius
Most people have no clue that there is a hidden subplot in the prequels and it's what contributed to the downfall of the jedi.
The subplot is that the Jedi have become too complacent or proud to admit to their own shortcomings. That they couldn't have possibly fallen for such a plot, because they're the Jedi. They are noble, but I think to a certain extent, they have also become corrupted by what they are supposed to be and are sometimes in denial about what they actually are.
But that's not what this thread is about, I'm just asking for anything that I may have missed where the galaxy eventually figures out how Palpatine came to power.
The subplot is that the Jedi have become too complacent or proud to admit to their own shortcomings. That they couldn't have possibly fallen for such a plot, because they're the Jedi. They are noble, but I think to a certain extent, they have also become corrupted by what they are supposed to be and are sometimes in denial about what they actually are.
But that's not what this thread is about, I'm just asking for anything that I may have missed where the galaxy eventually figures out how Palpatine came to power.
Posted on 8/1/17 at 3:54 am to Sentrius
The prequels made me question a lot about the jedi. I hate George Lucas.
Posted on 8/1/17 at 3:59 am to Iron Lion
quote:
I hate George Lucas.
You can question and hate him all you want but no one can deny that he was an amazing creator that really knew how to build a universe.
If he had just refined his storytelling and plot development skills a little bit better for the prequels, he would be the fricking GOAT and there wouldn't be anyone in hollywood who could touch him for the damnedest longest time ever.
Posted on 8/1/17 at 4:22 am to Sentrius
quote:
If he had just refined his storytelling and plot development skills a little bit better for the prequels
He needed to learn humility. Accept his weaknesses along with his strengths. His storytelling and plot development needed to be more than a little better.
As to your topic, I've always taken it as Palpatine took advantage of the Jedis hubris.
As far as anyone questioning what happened and how did he do it, there weren't many left that were ever aware that Palpatine was a Sith in the first place. I would assume most just thought he was just a politician that rose up and led the Senate to form the Empire and no other explanation was needed.
Posted on 8/1/17 at 6:20 am to Murray
quote:This. Vader was the public face of the Sith.
As far as anyone questioning what happened and how did he do it, there weren't many left that were ever aware that Palpatine was a Sith in the first place. I would assume most just thought he was just a politician that rose up and led the Senate to form the Empire and no other explanation was needed.
Many folks, even high ranking members of the military, generally discounted Vader's effectiveness in the original- they saw him more as a fanatic, less as a seriously powered-up figure. Even by end of ROTJ, Luke was caught off guard by Palpatine's strength in the Dark Side (after the prequels, it seems that Yoda did a piss-poor job of preparing Luke to face him).
Originally, there was some speculation that Palpatine was just a figurehead for the faceless military that wanted Empire over Republic. That obviously got wiped away with the prequels, too.
Posted on 8/1/17 at 6:29 am to Iron Lion
quote:
I hate George Lucas
Posted on 8/1/17 at 6:41 am to Sentrius
To be honest, the Jedi were pretty damn arrogant and thought their shite didn't stink. You could see hints of it throughout the prequels. If Lucas had been a better storyteller, that angle could have been better developed
Posted on 8/1/17 at 6:43 am to Sentrius
(no message)
This post was edited on 8/1/17 at 6:48 am
Posted on 8/1/17 at 7:00 am to Scoob
The prequels did a poor job of explaining his plan. The trade and clone wars seemed dumb but we're really used to spread the jedi out throughout the galaxy so they could be overwhelmed one by one by the clone troops. Problem is the movie did a lousy job of explaining that little fact and it changes everything.
Posted on 8/1/17 at 7:15 am to Sentrius
quote:
The subplot is that the Jedi have become too complacent or proud to admit to their own shortcomings. That they couldn't have possibly fallen for such a plot, because they're the Jedi. They are noble, but I think to a certain extent, they have also become corrupted by what they are supposed to be and are sometimes in denial about what they actually are.
Isn't this at the core of the next movie? The Jedi philosophy will have to change.
Posted on 8/1/17 at 7:16 am to Sentrius
quote:
Jedi have become too complacent or proud to admit to their own shortcomings
Sounds like George Lucas, doesn't it?
Posted on 8/1/17 at 8:29 am to Sentrius
quote:
The subplot is that the Jedi have become too complacent or proud to admit to their own shortcomings. That they couldn't have possibly fallen for such a plot, because they're the Jedi. They are noble, but I think to a certain extent, they have also become corrupted by what they are supposed to be and are sometimes in denial about what they actually are.
Sit on couches, they must
Posted on 8/1/17 at 8:49 am to prplhze2000
quote:
The trade and clone wars seemed dumb but we're really used to spread the Jedi out throughout the galaxy so they could be overwhelmed one by one by the clone troops.
I always attributed the clone wars as a way for Palpatine to assume total control of the republic and weaken the senate. It mirrors what happened in ancient Rome when during wartime the ruler was given full autonomy to rule and basically become a dictator in order to bypass the slow-moving senate. It all starts in TPM when Palpatine coerces Amedala to issue a "vote of no confidence" to oust the current Chancellor and nominate Palpatine. Once Chancellor, he can orchestrate the Clone Wars to seize control over the republic and the Clone army.
Posted on 8/1/17 at 9:35 am to Sentrius
He snuck behind everybody's back and worked with enemies
He weakened the Jedi by letting in the trans species
He always promoted going to war
He spent all the money to where the republic had to make shady deals with bad hombres
Star Wars John McCain
He weakened the Jedi by letting in the trans species
He always promoted going to war
He spent all the money to where the republic had to make shady deals with bad hombres
Star Wars John McCain
Posted on 8/1/17 at 9:45 am to Sentrius
Only like 5 people knew he was a Sith so it's believable that the Jedi had no idea who Dooku was talking about when he said that. These were Yoda, Vader/Anakin, Obi Wan, Mace Windu(immediately killed) and Tarkin. They didn't really know until it was too late.
Some of the recent books have explained that he only used his powers in rare situations and every time he did, he killed whoever saw him do it. To the rest of the galaxy, he was just a guy that rose to power and was a bit of a dictator, not the Lord of an ancient religion hell bent on oppression. Plus, who would think an old senator is capable of what he pulled off.
They also state how, like you said, there was a subplot. The Jedi lost their way throughout the war by going against their teachings and trying to assassinate Dooku. People around the galaxy weren't a fan of the separatists/empire, but the Republic bringing war to neutral planets wasn't much better.
Some of the recent books have explained that he only used his powers in rare situations and every time he did, he killed whoever saw him do it. To the rest of the galaxy, he was just a guy that rose to power and was a bit of a dictator, not the Lord of an ancient religion hell bent on oppression. Plus, who would think an old senator is capable of what he pulled off.
They also state how, like you said, there was a subplot. The Jedi lost their way throughout the war by going against their teachings and trying to assassinate Dooku. People around the galaxy weren't a fan of the separatists/empire, but the Republic bringing war to neutral planets wasn't much better.
This post was edited on 8/1/17 at 9:50 am
Posted on 8/1/17 at 9:52 am to Sentrius
quote:
subplot is that the Jedi have become too complacent or proud to admit to their own shortcomings. That they couldn't have possibly fallen for such a plot, because they're the Jedi. They are noble, but I think to a certain extent, they have also become corrupted by what they are supposed to be and are sometimes in denial about what they actually are.
I really hope Luke is jaded by this in the new movie.
And this is due to Lucas' shitty writing in the prequel trilogies. If y'all haven't watched Clone Wars this entire concept is examined at length. The Anakin in Clone Wars is such a much stronger and deep character.
Posted on 8/1/17 at 10:31 am to Sentrius
quote:
The subplot is that the Jedi have become too complacent or proud to admit to their own shortcomings.
Kind of like George Lucas. He subconsciously added his own problems into the plot.
Posted on 8/1/17 at 11:12 am to Sentrius
I will say that after watching the clone wars a few times, it has started to irritate me that the Jedi, particularly yoda, are so clueless the entire time. I have had the exact same questions as you and have considered starting a thread.
They are fighting a handful of separatists, with an army of robots, and never take a step back to figure out why. The only explanation I have come across is that the with were believed to be "extinct" and that strong force wielders could cloak their force peers to other force sensitive beings.
Still, you would think someone would have thought something was wrong. The whole ordeal, along with the banishment of ahsoka really set the stage for the Jedi genocide and rise of Vader; it was the Jedis own damn fault. Mace windu was a bitch.
They are fighting a handful of separatists, with an army of robots, and never take a step back to figure out why. The only explanation I have come across is that the with were believed to be "extinct" and that strong force wielders could cloak their force peers to other force sensitive beings.
Still, you would think someone would have thought something was wrong. The whole ordeal, along with the banishment of ahsoka really set the stage for the Jedi genocide and rise of Vader; it was the Jedis own damn fault. Mace windu was a bitch.
Posted on 8/1/17 at 12:14 pm to elprez00
quote:
The Anakin in Clone Wars is such a much stronger and deep character.
I would hope so since it went for 6 seasons and 121 episodes.
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