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Message
re: Crackpot ASOIAF Theories SPOILERS
Posted on 4/8/13 at 6:44 am to OMLandshark
Posted on 4/8/13 at 6:44 am to OMLandshark
quote:
Its probably the theory I hate the most, and is really insulting to me. If Tywin even had a suspicion that Tyrion was the Mad King's son, he would have found a way to kill him in the crib. Even if he wouldn't kill him for the sake of his wife, it completely demolishes Tywin and Tyrion's relationship in the books.
All it turns Tywin into is the evil stepfather, and makes their relationship much less interesting as a whole. It would make perfect sense for Tywin to treat Tyrion like he does when he's the product of the Mad King's rape and the rape that killed her, but its not interesting. Its interesting that Tywin treats his own son with such distain and hatred, when he would actually be Tywin's favorite son if he weren't a dwarf or didn't kill his mother in the womb, even with the whoring. He is Tywin wrought in miniature form.
Plus it takes off the heat of Tyrion's actions at the end of SoS, and he needs to somewhat pay the price for his kinslaying.
I understand where you're coming from. And I really don't have much of an opinion one way or the other on Tyrion being a Targaryen. While there is evidence (hair color, love of dragons, Mad King's attraction to Joanna and wedding night actions) it's not very substantial at this point.
However, I think it might be an equal stretch to say that Tywin never even suspected that Tyrion could have been the son of the Mad King. Heck, in the very last episode of the t.v. show he said something like "though I can't prove that you aren't my son". I can't remember but it seems like he said something similar in the books. That wouldn't make much sense if there wasn't at least a suspicion.
Also, Martin has shown with the Jon/Cat relationship that he's not adverse to trotting out the old "step parent" thing. If anything that one was more cliched since it involved the classic "step mother" behaving badly towards their step child. (and interestingly, both Cat and Tywin seem to have remained very much in love with their spouses).
Now, none of this means that Tyrion is a Targ and he may well not be one. His arguably Targ traits could come from somewhere down the line of his ancestors. But the fact that Joanna was actually from a cadet branch of the Lannisters could make this a little less likely than if she was from one of the families (ie: Baretheon) with some Targ blood running through them.
1
Posted on 4/8/13 at 6:49 am to Methuselah
If Tyrion is a Targ that means he and Dany are brother and sister and Jon is their nephew. 3 heads
Posted on 4/8/13 at 7:28 am to putt23
At first, I thought the Tyrion Targaryen thing sounded stupid. But, the more I think about it, the more it could make sense. It seems Dany, Jon, and Tyrion have quite a bit in common: all were are outcasts, mothers died while birthing them...hmmmmm
Posted on 4/8/13 at 7:36 am to ColaTiger
quote:
Tyrion Targaryen
I don't think Tywin would have allowed Tyrion to flaunt his money and name if he knew he was the product of a rape.
I think he would have killed him in silent rather than ruin the name and have a chance of it getting out.
This post was edited on 4/8/13 at 7:47 am
Posted on 4/8/13 at 7:37 am to Hu_Flung_Pu
On another note....
Is this a plausible speculation?
Is this a plausible speculation?
quote:
Yes, the gravedigger at the Quiet Island is Sandor, there are numerous several references to it: 1. The gravedigger is a notably big man (like Sandor). 2. The gravedigger is injuried, and his injuries matches those Sandor has recieved. 3. Dog coming up to gravedigger and gravdigger's petting him is a obvious nod at the gravedigger's being Sandor. 4. When Brienne asks the abbot if Sandor is dead, he curiously replies that "he is in peace"; obviously meaning to mislead Brienne into believing that Sandor is dead without lying outright.
Posted on 4/8/13 at 7:41 am to OMLandshark
quote:
Its probably the theory I hate the most...
I don't care for it either. It's too cliche for me considering the questions of the lineage of other characters at this point. And honestly it just doesn't make much sense to me at the end of the day. As much disdain as Tywin has for Tyrion because he's not Jaime Part Deux and knowing he killed his wife in childbirth, I just don't see how he'd let him live either.
Posted on 4/8/13 at 9:02 am to BluegrassBelle
I just want to know one thing...
Where do whores go?
Where do whores go?
Posted on 4/8/13 at 9:47 am to BluegrassBelle
When I first brought up Tyrion Targaryen thy, everyone took issue with Tywin and its effect on his character. I guess I don't get that. In the grand scope of the story, what difference would it make if Tywin was "the evil stepfather" -along with the other important hats he wears? How does this cuckolding change his relevance to the series? It doesn't. It actually adds some humanity to him via sympathy for him, and also rationalize his need for (the appearance of) total control.
However, I think Tyrion Targ is a red herring. The fact he has two different colored eyes is just too much-if it's what Martin wants us to suspect.
I really think its one of the twins, but not both. By definition, fraternal twins could be by two different fathers. Aerys wouldn't have waited that long to get at Joanna, if he did at all.
Of the two, Jaime would be the most "holy shite" choice, as he is the ONE Tywin would never suspect, or accept. His past "king(kin)slaying" explains his cursed recent history.
Now, in my theory, Tywin doesnt know Aerys had contact w Joanna, suspects, maybe, but be it rape or seduction or even affair in truth doesn't matter...Tywin only sees it as rape. Tywin still never suspects any of his kids aren't his...until Tyrion is born. His newborn's deformity just couldn't have come from him, and in conjunction with Joanna's death, affirms his suspicions after the fact. He could not kill the child, or even mention his suspicions, as Tywin would not allow such scandal at Casterly Rock. Instead he took it out on Tyrion in more devious ways ( master of sewers, treatment of Tysha, etc) -His true son and lawful heir.
None of the kids ever knew or suspected Tywin wasn't their father.
Last part of my thy is Jon Arryn maybe knew more than anyone suspected, lending several levels of interperetation to his phrase "The seed is strong".
However, I think Tyrion Targ is a red herring. The fact he has two different colored eyes is just too much-if it's what Martin wants us to suspect.
I really think its one of the twins, but not both. By definition, fraternal twins could be by two different fathers. Aerys wouldn't have waited that long to get at Joanna, if he did at all.
Of the two, Jaime would be the most "holy shite" choice, as he is the ONE Tywin would never suspect, or accept. His past "king(kin)slaying" explains his cursed recent history.
Now, in my theory, Tywin doesnt know Aerys had contact w Joanna, suspects, maybe, but be it rape or seduction or even affair in truth doesn't matter...Tywin only sees it as rape. Tywin still never suspects any of his kids aren't his...until Tyrion is born. His newborn's deformity just couldn't have come from him, and in conjunction with Joanna's death, affirms his suspicions after the fact. He could not kill the child, or even mention his suspicions, as Tywin would not allow such scandal at Casterly Rock. Instead he took it out on Tyrion in more devious ways ( master of sewers, treatment of Tysha, etc) -His true son and lawful heir.
None of the kids ever knew or suspected Tywin wasn't their father.
Last part of my thy is Jon Arryn maybe knew more than anyone suspected, lending several levels of interperetation to his phrase "The seed is strong".
This post was edited on 4/8/13 at 12:25 pm
Posted on 4/8/13 at 9:49 am to 19
In what book is the Aerys and Joanna contact? I totally missed that.
Posted on 4/8/13 at 9:51 am to Hu_Flung_Pu
I thought that was pretty much accepted around here.
Posted on 4/8/13 at 10:00 am to BloodSweat&Beers
quote:
In what book is the Aerys and Joanna contact? I totally missed that.
To my knowledge, it's not in any of the books. All we ever get is Tywin's knowledge that Aerys had the hots for Joanna, and he made a really shitty "Prima Nocte" type comment at Tywin's wedding.
Posted on 4/8/13 at 10:14 am to Porter Osborne Jr
quote:
I thought that was pretty much accepted around here.
About the gravedigger? I only came in on the backside of this thread. I'm not reading all of those pages
Posted on 4/8/13 at 10:20 am to 19
quote:
However, I think Tyrion Targ is a red herring. The fact he has two different colored eyes is just too much- it's what Martin wants us to suspect.
It's not really a red herring since you seem to be the only one who thinks it
Posted on 4/8/13 at 10:21 am to 19
quote:
When I first brought up Tyrion Targaryen thy, everyone took issue with Tywin and its effect on his character. I guess I don't get that. In the grand scope of the story, what difference would it make if Tywin was "the evil stepfather" -along with the other important hats he wears? How does this cuckolding change his relevance to the series? It doesn't. It actually adds some humanity to him via sympathy for him, and also rationalize his need for (the appearance of) total control.
I agree with this.
quote:
Last part of my thy is Jon Arryn maybe knew more than anyone suspected, lending several levels of interperetation to his phrase "The seed is strong".
I also agree with this.
I think he was referring to the Targaryen seed being strong and not Baratheon, even though the Baratheons were decedents of Targareons and also strong.
I also don't but Lysa being one ultimately behind Jon Arryn's death, she was pretty easy to manipulate.
Crackpot Theory: Jon Arryn was on to discovering something about a Targaryen decedent, could have been Jon, Tyrion, Aegon, who knows... Varys was probably behind his death and led Ned Stark down the Cersei/Jaime incest road in order to start a war with the Lannisters, Starks, and Baratheons keeping the stability of the throne fragile.
Are we really suppose to believe Varys knew the poison but didn't know the murderer of Jon Arryn?
Pycelle was probably right when he said poison was the weapon of eunuches and women.
This post was edited on 4/8/13 at 10:36 am
Posted on 4/8/13 at 10:25 am to Hugo Stiglitz
Anyone think someone presumed dead (by the readers) is going to end up not being and playing a part in this series? Like Jon Arryn, Lyanna, or Rhaegar Targaryen?
Posted on 4/8/13 at 10:29 am to Hugo Stiglitz
quote:
I think he was referring to the Targaryen seed being strong and not Baratheon, even though the Baratheons were decedents of Targareons and also strong.
Amen, brother.
quote:
I also don't but Lysa being one ultimately behind Jon Arryn's death, she's was pretty easy to manipulate...Are we really suppose to believe Varys knew the poison but didn't know the murderer of Jon Arryn?
That's an excellent point - I never really questioned Lysa as the culprit, but it makes sense that Varys wouldn't want to instigate instability to that degree before Aegon/ Dany was ready. I mention them both, because I still believe Varys too smart not to hedge his bets, especially if "Mummer's Dragon" means "fake dragon" instead of "fake MAN's dragon"
ETA- Hugo, what about this:
Re-read your thy, and it makes a point - Varys knew that Jon Arryn was getting too close, researching beyond the Lannister incest, which if exposed, would not only shake King's Landing to its core, but could in someway lead to Varys' own identity, as well. To buy time, he had to remove Jon from the equation, knowing Robert would turn to Ned...and that Ned would be satisfied with the Lannsiter incest and stop there, which he did.
Only issue here is we know LF was involved...is Varys so skilled at the game that he could make LF think killing Jon Arryn was his idea, and also lend evidence to make LF believe his own world were at risk if he didn't? and at the same time have LF believe this was his idea and his alone the whole time? The very definition of "Throneception?"
...Varys manipulates Littlefinger who manipulates Lysa who murders her husband.
Very good stuff.
This post was edited on 4/8/13 at 10:44 am
Posted on 4/8/13 at 10:29 am to Tiger1242
I'm confused by your question, are to talking about the television show?
Posted on 4/8/13 at 10:30 am to Hugo Stiglitz
No
Very possible I got a name wrong though, so many important dead, undead, presumed dead people I mix them up sometimes
Very possible I got a name wrong though, so many important dead, undead, presumed dead people I mix them up sometimes
This post was edited on 4/8/13 at 10:32 am
Posted on 4/8/13 at 10:48 am to 19
quote:
When I first brought up Tyrion Targaryen thy, everyone took issue with Tywin and its effect on his character. I guess I don't get that. In the grand scope of the story, what difference would it make if Tywin was "the evil stepfather" -along with the other important hats he wears? How does this cuckolding change his relevance to the series? It doesn't. It actually adds some humanity to him via sympathy for him, and also rationalize his need for (the appearance of) total control.
Sorry, but it changes up Tyrion's and Tywin's relationship completely. You're supposed to be pretty horrified on how horrible Tywin treats Tyrion. If the Tyrion Targ theory is true, then Tywin turns instantly understandable from what we knew of his character. Sorry, I just despise that.
This post was edited on 4/23/13 at 7:17 pm
Posted on 4/8/13 at 10:48 am to Tiger1242
Are you talking about this guy?
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