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Message
re: WCF Game 1 | Houston Rockets @ Golden State Warriors | Warriors win | GS 1-0
Posted on 5/21/15 at 11:04 am to Galactic Inquisitor
Posted on 5/21/15 at 11:04 am to Galactic Inquisitor
quote:I consider a flopper someone who pretends they get hit when they didn't. Like Green and Barnes did against the Pelicans when they pretended they got elbowed in the face when the elbow never touched them. That's a flop. Or someone who gets touched who launches themselves acting like they got pushed.
These clowns arguing that Harden isn't an epic flopper are hilarious. Homerism at its finest.
Harden does "sell" the contact, but he really is getting hacked across the arms. He sticks the ball out and welcomes players to hack down on his arms.
Yes, it "looks" like flopping because of the way he throws his head back, but he is actually absorbing contact and getting fouled.
3
Posted on 5/21/15 at 11:13 am to PrimeTime Money
spin spin spin.
embellishing the effects of contact or no contact is flopping.
embellishing the effects of contact or no contact is flopping.
Posted on 5/21/15 at 11:14 am to PrimeTime Money
quote:
Harden does "sell" the contact, but he really is getting hacked across the arms. He sticks the ball out and welcomes players to hack down on his arms.
Yes, it "looks" like flopping because of the way he throws his head back, but he is actually absorbing contact and getting fouled.
LINK
Has Harden mastered the "art" of drawing contact? Absolutely. Is there a play like the above every game where he attempts to draw the contact, doesn't get fouled, and throws his arms up in the air. Yup.
This post was edited on 5/21/15 at 11:14 am
Posted on 5/21/15 at 11:37 am to PrimeTime Money
Here is an article written 10 days ago from Vantage Sports:
The NBA and the Internet have their own versions of urban myths. These are things that become “true” in the sense that they are told and retold in the online world to the point of being “common knowledge” even if they’re not actually true. Arguably the most incontrovertible “truth” of this season is that James Harden is a flopper. But is he?
No, really? I actually asked. Harden does get to the stripe an awful lot, and that’s often used as “proof” of his alleged flopping. I hear the argument a lot: “He snaps his head back and flails his arm every time he drives to the basket.” Such a statement will get greeted with chuckles, retweets, and teary-laughing emoticons.
Of course, no one would argue that he’s actually flopping on every drive. So it got me to wondering: How often does he flop? And how do you define a flop, anyway? Is there an objective way to even define it?
Because Vantage annotates every shooting foul drawn, it made it easy to go through and see just how often he really does flop. I reviewed 120 (one-third plus 10) of Harden’s drawn shooting fouls, enough to get a significant sample of how often he really flops—or at least does the things that are identified as doing so. Is this really standard James Harden?
ARM FLAILS
Video example: https://cdn2.streamable.com/video/bf8f50f0f5d411e4bfef27fc408a2bde.webm
The first thing I looked for is arm flails, which apparently means that Harden splays his arms about after getting fouled, overexaggerating the severity of the foul.
I noticed that this tended to happen when his arms got hacked as he dribbled, and that caused him to lose the ball. His arms seemed to flail in the same direction as the ball trajectory, almost as though to indicate that he’s not really flailing his arms but trying to keep the ball.
But not everyone is in the business of trying to explain away the flopping tendencies of the Beard. If the arms went out, the tally went up in the self-selected mental spreadsheet.
HEAD SNAPS
Video example: https://cdn2.streamable.com/video/5a9622c0f5d711e4bf84bd6ca6be9fa8.webm
Another major complaint about Harden is that he snaps his head back when he goes to the rim. The argument suggests that he’s feigning contact when it’s not there.
There are times when his head goes back, but he’s also charging the rim hard. I noticed that most of the time this happens, he’s actually keeping his eye on the basket as he comes up and under it. I imagine this is what people are seeing when they call it snapping his head back.
While I disagree that this is a flop, I gave detractors the benefit of the doubt. If his head went back, I counted it, even if he got hit in the head.
BAITS
Video example: https://cdn2.streamable.com/video/f49b94b0f5da11e4a68ca10ef87e2882.webm
Next, we have what I’m calling baits, which refers to when Harden baits a defender into a foul by pulling him out of defensive position and then going into him to draw a blocking foul.
It’s important here to understand what constitutes a block and what’s a charge. The rules state, “If an offensive player causes contact with a defensive player who has established a legal position, an offensive foul shall be called and no points may be scored.”
And that clause, “who has established a legal position” is very critical here. If an offensive player causes contact with a player who has not established a legal guarding position, it’s a blocking foul. Often, people will protest Harden’s baits because he initiated the contact, but that doesn’t matter.
If a shooter pump fakes a defender off is feet, then jumps into him, it’s a defensive foul, period.
ACTUAL FLOPS
Video example: https://cdn2.streamable.com/video/fd1c3ad0f40f11e48885a33f1ecb6e4c.webm
Finally, I looked at whether there was actually sufficient contact to warrant the physical response. This was more in the lines of what the flopping rules actually stipulate.
“Flopping” will be defined as any physical act that appears to have been intended to cause the referees to call a foul on another player. The primary factor in determining whether a player committed a flop is whether his physical reaction to contact with another player is inconsistent with what would reasonably be expected given the force or direction of the contact
I recorded every instance where there was a foul called without sufficient contact, whether there was corresponding flop activity or not. This, of course, leaves out the possibility of it just being a bad call by the refs fault.
I purposely went against any type of pro-Harden bias here. For example, the above clip I ruled a flop, but most would not consider that one. For the record, the NBA has not found Harden guilty of flopping since November 2013. While he did get knocked twice in one week, he’s been clean (officially) since then.
THE RESULTS
These are the percentages of the time, at most, he commits each alleged flop activity while drawing a shooting foul. Now, bear in mind that sometimes more than one of these alleged activities can occur in a play. Also, remember that these are all the most liberal definitions of the flopping categories.
Of the 330 shooting fouls drawn by Harden, an estimated 245 of them had no flop-related activity whatsoever. This certainly belies the notion that the bulk of Harden’s free throws are coming from flops.
Finally, remember that’s only what happens when he’s drawing fouls. The vast majority of his field-goal attempts don’t actually draw fouls at all.
In fact, when you work out the details over the full season, only 85 fouls drawn, a smidge over one per game has flop-related activity.
The NBA and the Internet have their own versions of urban myths. These are things that become “true” in the sense that they are told and retold in the online world to the point of being “common knowledge” even if they’re not actually true. Arguably the most incontrovertible “truth” of this season is that James Harden is a flopper. But is he?
No, really? I actually asked. Harden does get to the stripe an awful lot, and that’s often used as “proof” of his alleged flopping. I hear the argument a lot: “He snaps his head back and flails his arm every time he drives to the basket.” Such a statement will get greeted with chuckles, retweets, and teary-laughing emoticons.
Of course, no one would argue that he’s actually flopping on every drive. So it got me to wondering: How often does he flop? And how do you define a flop, anyway? Is there an objective way to even define it?
Because Vantage annotates every shooting foul drawn, it made it easy to go through and see just how often he really does flop. I reviewed 120 (one-third plus 10) of Harden’s drawn shooting fouls, enough to get a significant sample of how often he really flops—or at least does the things that are identified as doing so. Is this really standard James Harden?
ARM FLAILS
Video example: https://cdn2.streamable.com/video/bf8f50f0f5d411e4bfef27fc408a2bde.webm
The first thing I looked for is arm flails, which apparently means that Harden splays his arms about after getting fouled, overexaggerating the severity of the foul.
I noticed that this tended to happen when his arms got hacked as he dribbled, and that caused him to lose the ball. His arms seemed to flail in the same direction as the ball trajectory, almost as though to indicate that he’s not really flailing his arms but trying to keep the ball.
But not everyone is in the business of trying to explain away the flopping tendencies of the Beard. If the arms went out, the tally went up in the self-selected mental spreadsheet.
HEAD SNAPS
Video example: https://cdn2.streamable.com/video/5a9622c0f5d711e4bf84bd6ca6be9fa8.webm
Another major complaint about Harden is that he snaps his head back when he goes to the rim. The argument suggests that he’s feigning contact when it’s not there.
There are times when his head goes back, but he’s also charging the rim hard. I noticed that most of the time this happens, he’s actually keeping his eye on the basket as he comes up and under it. I imagine this is what people are seeing when they call it snapping his head back.
While I disagree that this is a flop, I gave detractors the benefit of the doubt. If his head went back, I counted it, even if he got hit in the head.
BAITS
Video example: https://cdn2.streamable.com/video/f49b94b0f5da11e4a68ca10ef87e2882.webm
Next, we have what I’m calling baits, which refers to when Harden baits a defender into a foul by pulling him out of defensive position and then going into him to draw a blocking foul.
It’s important here to understand what constitutes a block and what’s a charge. The rules state, “If an offensive player causes contact with a defensive player who has established a legal position, an offensive foul shall be called and no points may be scored.”
And that clause, “who has established a legal position” is very critical here. If an offensive player causes contact with a player who has not established a legal guarding position, it’s a blocking foul. Often, people will protest Harden’s baits because he initiated the contact, but that doesn’t matter.
If a shooter pump fakes a defender off is feet, then jumps into him, it’s a defensive foul, period.
ACTUAL FLOPS
Video example: https://cdn2.streamable.com/video/fd1c3ad0f40f11e48885a33f1ecb6e4c.webm
Finally, I looked at whether there was actually sufficient contact to warrant the physical response. This was more in the lines of what the flopping rules actually stipulate.
“Flopping” will be defined as any physical act that appears to have been intended to cause the referees to call a foul on another player. The primary factor in determining whether a player committed a flop is whether his physical reaction to contact with another player is inconsistent with what would reasonably be expected given the force or direction of the contact
I recorded every instance where there was a foul called without sufficient contact, whether there was corresponding flop activity or not. This, of course, leaves out the possibility of it just being a bad call by the refs fault.
I purposely went against any type of pro-Harden bias here. For example, the above clip I ruled a flop, but most would not consider that one. For the record, the NBA has not found Harden guilty of flopping since November 2013. While he did get knocked twice in one week, he’s been clean (officially) since then.
THE RESULTS
These are the percentages of the time, at most, he commits each alleged flop activity while drawing a shooting foul. Now, bear in mind that sometimes more than one of these alleged activities can occur in a play. Also, remember that these are all the most liberal definitions of the flopping categories.
Of the 330 shooting fouls drawn by Harden, an estimated 245 of them had no flop-related activity whatsoever. This certainly belies the notion that the bulk of Harden’s free throws are coming from flops.
Finally, remember that’s only what happens when he’s drawing fouls. The vast majority of his field-goal attempts don’t actually draw fouls at all.
In fact, when you work out the details over the full season, only 85 fouls drawn, a smidge over one per game has flop-related activity.
Posted on 5/21/15 at 11:37 am to PrimeTime Money
SO WHY THE REPUTATION?
How did Harden get such a reputation if it doesn’t match the reality? I think there are a number of reasons.
1. He was one of the first players fined for flopping, but since his two violations in November 2013, he’s been clean. That doesn’t mean the repuation went away.
2. Harden doesn’t avoid contact. Vantage’s altered shot is one where the shooter alters his release angle because of the shot defense. Harden took only 37 altered shots all season. Compare that to the league leader in altered shot attempts: Russell Westbrook with 108. These two are also the top 2 in the league in fouled shot attempts, but Harden had 71 more fouled shot attempts than Westbrook did.
3. Harden isn’t particularly good at making fouled shot attempts. On the season, his And-1% (i.e., percentage of all fouled shot attempts where a field goal was made) is 14.8 percent. This ranks 154th out of the 186 players who had more than 50 fouled shot attempts (note that traditional box score stats don’t consider a missed fouled shot attempt to be a field-goal attempt at all). The grain of salt to take this with is that Harden’s degree of difficulty is much greater on fouled shot attempts than the And-1% leaders, who are mostly bigs drawing fouls under the hoop.
4. He has a striking lankiness to him and a big bushy beard. When he loses the ball after getting hacked, his long arms chasing the ball just look floppy. When he tilts his head back to keep his eye on the the basket, the long beard angles out and accentuates his movement. It’s the almost comical aesthetics more than the reality. It sticks in people’s heads.
5. He draws a lot of fouls, and he beats teams doing it. So when fans watch him beat their teams by getting to the line, there’s a tendency to want to explain it away.
6. Confirmation bias is more powerful than people realize. That one time per game where there’s something remotely floppy, the predisposed viewer feels that it’s been happening all game.
The next time you’re watching the Rockets play, watch every drive, and ask yourself, was that a flop? You’ll find yourself saying a lot more no’s than yes’s. While Harden definitely isn’t one to avoid contact, he also isn’t nearly the flopper his reputation suggests.
https://www.vantagesports.com/story/VU1E8yYAADAKsKdi/do-330-shooting-fouls-drawn-mean-james-harden-is-a-flopper
How did Harden get such a reputation if it doesn’t match the reality? I think there are a number of reasons.
1. He was one of the first players fined for flopping, but since his two violations in November 2013, he’s been clean. That doesn’t mean the repuation went away.
2. Harden doesn’t avoid contact. Vantage’s altered shot is one where the shooter alters his release angle because of the shot defense. Harden took only 37 altered shots all season. Compare that to the league leader in altered shot attempts: Russell Westbrook with 108. These two are also the top 2 in the league in fouled shot attempts, but Harden had 71 more fouled shot attempts than Westbrook did.
3. Harden isn’t particularly good at making fouled shot attempts. On the season, his And-1% (i.e., percentage of all fouled shot attempts where a field goal was made) is 14.8 percent. This ranks 154th out of the 186 players who had more than 50 fouled shot attempts (note that traditional box score stats don’t consider a missed fouled shot attempt to be a field-goal attempt at all). The grain of salt to take this with is that Harden’s degree of difficulty is much greater on fouled shot attempts than the And-1% leaders, who are mostly bigs drawing fouls under the hoop.
4. He has a striking lankiness to him and a big bushy beard. When he loses the ball after getting hacked, his long arms chasing the ball just look floppy. When he tilts his head back to keep his eye on the the basket, the long beard angles out and accentuates his movement. It’s the almost comical aesthetics more than the reality. It sticks in people’s heads.
5. He draws a lot of fouls, and he beats teams doing it. So when fans watch him beat their teams by getting to the line, there’s a tendency to want to explain it away.
6. Confirmation bias is more powerful than people realize. That one time per game where there’s something remotely floppy, the predisposed viewer feels that it’s been happening all game.
The next time you’re watching the Rockets play, watch every drive, and ask yourself, was that a flop? You’ll find yourself saying a lot more no’s than yes’s. While Harden definitely isn’t one to avoid contact, he also isn’t nearly the flopper his reputation suggests.
https://www.vantagesports.com/story/VU1E8yYAADAKsKdi/do-330-shooting-fouls-drawn-mean-james-harden-is-a-flopper
This post was edited on 5/21/15 at 11:38 am
Posted on 5/21/15 at 11:39 am to PrimeTime Money
Wow great article. 
Thanks for posting.
Thanks for posting.Posted on 5/21/15 at 11:42 am to brgfather129
quote:From your very own link, watch Barnes' right arm.
Is there a play like the above every game where he attempts to draw the contact, doesn't get fouled, and throws his arms up in the air. Yup.
Harden feels Barnes reaching with his right arm and goes up for the shot. Barnes gets caught with his "hand in the cookie jar".
Barnes then realizes Harden is going up for the shot and tries to pull his arm back and put his hands up and pretend like he didn't do anything.
That was a foul.
Posted on 5/21/15 at 11:44 am to PrimeTime Money
so ~30% of his calls are by actions that were not "true" fouls. That doesn't include the attempts he has at trying to draw a foul by flopping as well, which he does not get at times.
He gets to his spots, he's good at drawing contact and getting the right calls, but the excessive nature of his attempts to get calls is what makes him a flopper.
He gets to his spots, he's good at drawing contact and getting the right calls, but the excessive nature of his attempts to get calls is what makes him a flopper.
Posted on 5/21/15 at 11:45 am to htran90
You know who doesnt have to have a fan of his write an article explainjng how hes not a flopper?
Players that dont flop
Players that dont flop
Posted on 5/21/15 at 11:52 am to htran90
quote:No, that's wrong. Near 30% of the calls were foul calls where he either threw his head back, flailed his arms, or something like that regardless of whether or not it was a legitimate foul or not.
so ~30% of his calls are by actions that were not "true" fouls.
Only about 5% of the time was he getting a foul call by "flopping" when he wasn't actually fouled.
So 95% of the time, he was getting legitimately fouled.
This post was edited on 5/21/15 at 11:55 am
Posted on 5/21/15 at 11:54 am to PrimeTime Money
quote:
I noticed that this tended to happen when his arms got hacked as he dribbled, and that caused him to lose the ball. His arms seemed to flail in the same direction as the ball trajectory, almost as though to indicate that he’s not really flailing his arms but trying to keep the ball.
Did Boom write this crap?Posted on 5/21/15 at 11:59 am to Galactic Inquisitor
No matter what you think about that, the fact it was still tallied as "flop activity" for arm flailing.
So the article is objective as far as the numbers go.
So the article is objective as far as the numbers go.
Posted on 5/21/15 at 12:04 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:
I reviewed 120 (one-third plus 10) of Harden’s drawn shooting fouls
quote:
85 fouls drawn, a smidge over one per game has flop-related activity.
Assuming that 120 is accurately representative of a 330 sample size, he flops 26% of the time.
Posted on 5/21/15 at 12:09 pm to Galactic Inquisitor
And 21% of that 26%, he's also actually getting fouled.
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