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re: McCaffrey should win Heisman, if justice is applied.

Posted on 11/30/15 at 5:39 pm to
Posted by TheSexecutioner
Member since Mar 2011
5247 posts
Posted on 11/30/15 at 5:39 pm to
quote:

What RBs aren't system backs? Does the SEC have any? I'm gonna guess that's a no


It's absolutely a very system position, particularly in NFL style, non-spread offenses. Behind QB's, they put up more stats than any other players. Yet they are incredibly interchangeable. See how devalued they are in the draft/FA market in the NFL.
Posted by ReauxlTide222
St. Petersburg
Member since Nov 2010
83388 posts
Posted on 11/30/15 at 5:57 pm to
Yes, they are devalued. I don't know what that has to do with the Heisman...unless you're arguing that QBs should always win it. College QBs are more devalued than RBs now.
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
259859 posts
Posted on 11/30/15 at 6:01 pm to
quote:



No one that is in the conversation has had more carries than him this year,


I'm guessing if LSU had played McNeese, Fournette would have easily be first in yds in the SEC. Probably with a better YPC.
Posted by buckeye_vol
Member since Jul 2014
35236 posts
Posted on 11/30/15 at 7:28 pm to
quote:

KO Return Yds through 12 games:
922, 29.7 Yds/rertun, #7 in nation
This skews the stats and makes it somewhat deceiving.

In particular, McAffrey's had 31 KO returns this seasons. There are 45 TEAMS that have 31 or fewer KO returns on the season--across FBS, 35 is the average for a TEAM. For comparison purposes, Ohio State has only 14 returns the entire season.

What makes the KO returns deceiving is how easy it is to accumulate yardage. The average KO return is ~21.4 yards. Therefore, 31 average KO returns would add up to 660+ yards. with Missouri has the worst KO return average by a a yard, and they still average > 15 yards per return (~ 470 yards for 31 returns).

There is no doubt he's had a great season and his versatility is a definite positive; however, when you put his return yards into context, his stats become less Heisman worthy.
This post was edited on 11/30/15 at 7:29 pm
Posted by gthog61
Irving, TX
Member since Nov 2009
71001 posts
Posted on 11/30/15 at 7:44 pm to
exactly, most of the time you get 15 or 20 yards before meeting an opposing player

I'm not bashing him in particular, just yards from scrimmage are different (he has a bunch of those too).
Posted by MrFreakinMiyagi
Reseda
Member since Feb 2007
18946 posts
Posted on 11/30/15 at 8:09 pm to
He returns kicks!!!

That makes him awesome!!!
Posted by TigersforEver
Alexandria, LA
Member since Aug 2008
1930 posts
Posted on 11/30/15 at 8:20 pm to
Fournette is the BEST player, but McCaffrey has ACCOMPLISHED the most. I think you have to give it to the latter.
Posted by buckeye_vol
Member since Jul 2014
35236 posts
Posted on 11/30/15 at 8:25 pm to
quote:

but McCaffrey has ACCOMPLISHED the most
Besides all purpose yards, which are extremely deceptive and WAY overstated, due to KO return yardage, which metric indicates he's more accomplished than the other stud RBs like Cook, Henry, Fournette, and Elliot?
Posted by Knight of Old
New Hampshire
Member since Jul 2007
10959 posts
Posted on 11/30/15 at 10:00 pm to
quote:

however, when you put his return yards into context
Here's some context:
He returned Kick-offs - a lot of them.
He ran for yards - a lot of them.
He caught passes - a lot of them.
He even threw a touchdown pass.

The context is not the number of kick-offs he returns relative to how many kick-off returns other teams have. (by the way, the greater amount of KOs might indicate a weaker defense which would, in turn, raise the value of an individual offensive performer who can 'do it all').

The context is that he returns kick-offs, period. And this, in addition to all he does, actually proves that he can do things the running backs at the top of the list simply are not doing.

Also, to imply that all-purpose yards are somehow meaningless is tantamount to saying: running, receiving, or kicking yardage - pick one because the others don't matter.

For regular season performance, McCaffrey has been extremely impressive and should be awarded the Heisman based on his multi-varied accomplishments as a player.
Posted by JuiceTerry
Roond the Scheme
Member since Apr 2013
40868 posts
Posted on 11/30/15 at 10:20 pm to
Darn. Hate I missed this thread. Henry is 1/3 to win the trophy. It's his, and he is very, very deserving. Roll damn Tide, Derrick!
Posted by buckeye_vol
Member since Jul 2014
35236 posts
Posted on 11/30/15 at 10:21 pm to
quote:

The context is not the number of kick-offs he returns relative to how many kick-off returns other teams have
Uhhhh that's exactly what context is.
quote:

The context is that he returns kick-offs, period
Yes. And I said it's a "definite positive."
quote:

actually proves that he can do things the running backs at the top of the list simply are not doing.
But every one of those backs is capable of being a better than average KO returner. Fournette was pretty good at it last year (26 per return).

Clearly Nick Saban, Jimbo Fisher, Urban Meyer, Les Miles, and many other coaches value returns less than offensive plays for their running backs.
quote:

Also, to imply that all-purpose yards are somehow meaningless
Nobody is saying they're meaningless; I'm saying that a return yard < offensive yard. That's pretty obvious.
quote:

is tantamount to saying: running, receiving, or kicking yardage - pick one because the others don't matter.
Nice strawman. They all matter, but some yards are far harder to obtain and thus more valuable than others. That doesn't mean the other yardage is useless.

Put it this way: when a returner who catches the ball in the end zone can gain 25 yards by just kneeling, that yardage is clearly a lot less exclusive.
quote:

For regular season performance, McCaffrey has been extremely impressive
Agreed.
quote:

and should be awarded the Heisman based on his multi-varied accomplishments as a player.
And what are those accomplishments? Is your entire argument based on all purpose yards and the # of unique touchdowns? It has to be because he lags behind the others in everything else.

If you look at his stats honestly, they don't support him being the winner. They support him being in the small group of contenders though, and that's mighty impressive.
This post was edited on 11/30/15 at 10:28 pm
Posted by Volmanac
Nashville, TN
Member since May 2009
7733 posts
Posted on 11/30/15 at 10:30 pm to
Qualifying for kick off return yards would be a valid point if it was only brought up in the context of him having more yards than he other Heisman candidates for THIS season.

But McCaffrey has more All Purpose yards than any major conference player in the last 25 years. That includes shite tons of players that returned kicks.

Plus, being able to be an elite kick returner and still an All American All Purpose back only adds to his case.
This post was edited on 11/30/15 at 10:31 pm
Posted by buckeye_vol
Member since Jul 2014
35236 posts
Posted on 11/30/15 at 10:38 pm to
quote:

But McCaffrey has more All Purpose yards than any major conference player in the last 25 years. That includes shite tons of players that returned kicks.
And Darren Sproles has the record for a season in the NFL whole Brian Westbrook had the career record.

Although they are/were valuable players, why aren't they considered among the very best? Why wasn't Sproles awarded the MVP in his record breaking season? He didn't even make the Pro Bowl.

McAffery had a great season. It's not necessary to overrate it though.
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
259859 posts
Posted on 11/30/15 at 10:38 pm to
quote:

to imply that all-purpose yards are somehow meaningless


Is retarded. I imagine if the roles were reversed, and Henry had receiving and return yards the red elephants would be all over that.

McCaffrey has over 2,000 yards from scrimmage, not even counting returns.
Posted by Volmanac
Nashville, TN
Member since May 2009
7733 posts
Posted on 11/30/15 at 10:44 pm to
Did Darren Sproles set a 25 year mark? Did Darren Sproles have a 2,000 yard season from scrimmage? Did Darren Sproles score 4 different ways?
Posted by JuiceTerry
Roond the Scheme
Member since Apr 2013
40868 posts
Posted on 11/30/15 at 11:01 pm to
McCaffrey has had a great year. His rushing numbers lack a little bit as do his TD numbers, especially considering the defensive rankings he's played against. He's made up for that with some receiving yards. He'll probably end up a solid 2nd place. That's nothing to sneeze at.
Posted by buckeye_vol
Member since Jul 2014
35236 posts
Posted on 11/30/15 at 11:12 pm to
quote:

Did Darren Sproles set a 25 year mark?
Ummm he set an NFL record. So however long they've been tracking it.
quote:

Did Darren Sproles have a 2,000 yard season from scrimmage?
No. Just over 1300 yards. Of course, Sproles averaged an entire yard more per touch.
quote:

Did Darren Sproles score 4 different ways?
I don't know but this is an even more nonsensical statistic.

It's like those people that think Kobe was better than Shaq when they played together because he scored in more unique ways. Yet, Shaq scored more and was WAY more efficient.

In other words, at the end of the day, sports are about out scoring an opponent and a TD is a TD (maybe defensive TDs aside). If you score more TDs on fewer touches, it doesn't matter if they are in fewer "ways." It's still better.
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