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re: Baseball Hall of Fame Announcement Thread- Bagwell, Raines, Pudge Elected to HOF
Posted on 1/18/17 at 6:42 pm to Patton
Posted on 1/18/17 at 6:42 pm to Patton
Baloo can answer it better than me as he had a long write up about it. But when he was with the O's he was the best player on the team. He was overlooked a lot during his career as well and yes he tailed off at the end but by looking at WAR, JAWS, etc he is over their threshold.
quote:
The 2017 Baseball Hall of Fame class will be announced on Jan. 18. We're using the interim period to examine each of the 34 candidates on the BBWAA ballot. Remember that a player must be named on at least 75 percent of submitted ballots to be enshrined into Cooperstown.
If you're tuning in late, we've already poked at the candidates who will be removed from the ballot after one season. Recently, we've turned our attention to the players earning serious consideration -- and determining whether they merit entry into the Hall or not.
Today, it's Mike Mussina's turn.
Mussina broke onto the ballot in 2014, earning 20.3 percent of the vote. That number has since increased with each successive year, to 24.6 percent in 2015, then to 43 percent in 2016. The trend remains true so far this voting season, as Mussina has been named on 61 percent of public and anonymous ballots -- though that percentage will drop, perhaps by as much as seven percentage points (as it did last year), when private ballots are considered.
The case for Mussina
The argument for Mussina is that he was a high-quality pitcher for nearly two decades. He started 536 games over parts of 18 seasons, compiling more than 3,560 innings. He won 270 games and posted a 3.68 ERA -- or a 123 ERA+, which is the more telling metric given he spent his career in the American League East, pitching in hitter-friendly ballparks. Additionally, Mussina made five All-Star teams; won seven Gold Gloves; finished top-six in Cy Young Award voting; and performed better (per ERA and strikeout-to-walk ratio) in the postseason than not.
This post was edited on 1/18/17 at 6:46 pm
Posted on 1/18/17 at 6:47 pm to tduecen
He's very good no doubt, but HOF I'm not really sold on.
Posted on 1/18/17 at 7:06 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
Tyler Kepner Retweeted Jon Heyman Incredible: Pudge is the first HOFer who has played even one game for the Tigers since 1974.
Which is a joke in itself. Trammell and Whitaker deserve to be in. If they played in a bigger market they would have made it pretty easily.
Posted on 1/18/17 at 8:06 pm to Patton
yea Mussina isnt a HOF'er. Very solid for a long time but never really one of the best pitchers in the league.
Just compare him to the last 5 pitchers from his era to get in & some of the superlatives they carry
Randy Johnson- 300wins, 5 CYs, 4000K's
Pedro- 3 cys, 3000K's, 5 ERA titles
Smoltz- 1 cy, 3000Ks, pristine postseason resume', 150 saves/200wins
Glavine- 300 wins, 2 Cys
Maddux- 4 cy, 300/3000 club
and people are going to try and say he is in this category of player?
Never won a cy young
never led league in ERA
didnt get to 300 wins or 3000k's
You let Mussina in, you are opening a can of worms for a grouping of "pretty good" pitchers to get in.
Just compare him to the last 5 pitchers from his era to get in & some of the superlatives they carry
Randy Johnson- 300wins, 5 CYs, 4000K's
Pedro- 3 cys, 3000K's, 5 ERA titles
Smoltz- 1 cy, 3000Ks, pristine postseason resume', 150 saves/200wins
Glavine- 300 wins, 2 Cys
Maddux- 4 cy, 300/3000 club
and people are going to try and say he is in this category of player?
Never won a cy young
never led league in ERA
didnt get to 300 wins or 3000k's
You let Mussina in, you are opening a can of worms for a grouping of "pretty good" pitchers to get in.
Posted on 1/18/17 at 8:16 pm to tduecen
quote:he is in over the WAR threshold, but unless I miscalculated something, his top 7 WAR seasons don't make the cut and he barely misses the JAWS cut
but by looking at WAR, JAWS, etc he is over their threshold.
Posted on 1/18/17 at 8:17 pm to tduecen
quote:
Baloo can answer
Oriole bias
Posted on 1/18/17 at 8:21 pm to WestCoastAg
JAWs has him at 63.8 and avg at 62.1
83 career WAR avg HoF pitcher is 73.9
Gray Ink has him at 250 and avg HoF at 180
Hall of Fame Monitor has him 121 and avg 100
He falls short on black ink and 7 year peak on BBR
83 career WAR avg HoF pitcher is 73.9
Gray Ink has him at 250 and avg HoF at 180
Hall of Fame Monitor has him 121 and avg 100
He falls short on black ink and 7 year peak on BBR
Posted on 1/18/17 at 8:28 pm to Lester Earl
Which pitcher was better?
Pitcher A 270-153 record, 123 ERA+, 7.1 K/9, 2.0 BB/9, 3.58 SO:BB, 83.0 WAR
Pitcher B 213-155 record, 125 ERA+, 8.0 K/9, 2.6 BB/9, 3.05 SO:BB. 69.5 WAR
Pitcher A 270-153 record, 123 ERA+, 7.1 K/9, 2.0 BB/9, 3.58 SO:BB, 83.0 WAR
Pitcher B 213-155 record, 125 ERA+, 8.0 K/9, 2.6 BB/9, 3.05 SO:BB. 69.5 WAR
Posted on 1/18/17 at 10:00 pm to Lester Earl
Mussina isn't as good as those guys but he's still HOF worthy IMO. Pitchers have been underrepresented in the Hall as of late. He still wouldn't make my fantasy ballot this year because it's so crowded. Here's my ballot:
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Ivan Rodriguez
Manny Ramirez
Tim Raines
Jeff Bagwell
Fred McGriff
Larry Walker
Vladimir Guerrero
Curt Schilling
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Ivan Rodriguez
Manny Ramirez
Tim Raines
Jeff Bagwell
Fred McGriff
Larry Walker
Vladimir Guerrero
Curt Schilling
Posted on 1/18/17 at 10:04 pm to Bench McElroy
The Hall is going to lose all credibility when they have guys like blylevin and Don sutton in but Roger Clemens and barry bonds are left out.
At some point they have to stop pretending the steroid era never happened.
At some point they have to stop pretending the steroid era never happened.
Posted on 1/18/17 at 10:10 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
Never won a cy young
never led league in ERA
didnt get to 300 wins or 3000k's
Pitched in the AL East his whole career. The AL East has the 2 smallest parks in the majors(Fenway and yankee stadium). The others are very hitter friendly, too.
Posted on 1/18/17 at 10:11 pm to EvrybodysAllAmerican
quote:
The Hall is going to lose all credibility when they have guys like blylevin and Don sutton in but Roger Clemens and barry bonds are left out.
At some point they have to stop pretending the steroid era never happened.
They're going to get in.
Posted on 1/18/17 at 10:15 pm to Bench McElroy
Haven't read the thread yet, just wanted to point out the incredible fricking hypocritical joke the BWAA is. Are you fricking serious? Bagwell and Pudge, but no Bonds or Clemens?
Posted on 1/18/17 at 10:18 pm to Bench McElroy
What a joke
Pudge is in before Bonds and Clemens
How is Hoffman still out? He was a phenomenal closer
Pudge is in before Bonds and Clemens
How is Hoffman still out? He was a phenomenal closer
Posted on 1/18/17 at 10:34 pm to Peregrine Laziosi
They will all get in.
Posted on 1/19/17 at 6:14 am to Peregrine Laziosi
The only arguments on Hoffman is mainly just 3 out guy and his post season numbers being terrible. I thought he should be in this year.
A part of me likes how small the baseball hall of fame is but I do think we need a few 4/5 person classes. I'd also like to see the ballot change as far as how long they stay.
A part of me likes how small the baseball hall of fame is but I do think we need a few 4/5 person classes. I'd also like to see the ballot change as far as how long they stay.
Posted on 1/19/17 at 6:44 am to heartbreakTiger
As of now only about half of the nearly 400 voters make their ballot public. Starting next year every ballot is required to be made public. IMO this will force most of the bad voters to do their homework and cast legitimate ballots.
Posted on 1/19/17 at 7:04 am to Undertow
That plus the old writers leaving should help guys like Edgar. It will also help Bonds and Clemons
Posted on 1/19/17 at 8:17 am to heartbreakTiger
Very happy for Bagwell. Well-deserved.
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