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Message
The best computer language skills for obtaining financial programming jobs
Posted on 2/23/14 at 1:23 pm
Posted on 2/23/14 at 1:23 pm
I've been reading a lot of job descriptions for entry-level positions at asset management firms, hedge funds, etc., and I see that there seems to be a lot of open positions for financial programmers.
I have a minor in computer science and have done a good bit of statistical/numerical programming in stuff like C, SAS, and MATLAB, but it looks like other skills are more in demand.
Stuff like...
* C#, PYTHON, etc.
* SQL/T-SQL/MySQL experience
* VBA
* Java
* .NET applications, especially ASP.NET (or MVC within C#, whatever that means)
* experience with Bloomberg machines or Fiserv software tools like APL
* experience with Advent Geneva and RSL
* experience with CSS, HTML, and JavaScript
Now, I am infamous for hating new technologies, and for the most part, I don't even know what most of that crap is. Nonetheless, if it can help launch a hedge fund career, I might be interested.
It's hard to get a good handle on a bunch of different unknown stuff all at one time, so I was hoping someone around here might have some very general advice on what the most efficient way to learn some new programming skills might be.
In other words, out of all that stuff listed above, which particular applications do you think would be the most "low hanging fruit" in terms of getting the most career advancement potential for the smallest investment of time to learn a new computer skill?
My gut instinct tells me that learning ASP.NET, C#, VBA, & SQL should be my highest priorities. And I did manage to get a B in a grad computer science course in database programming using Oracle's MySQL, but I really sucked at it, and I don't feel confident telling anyone that I actually "know" SQL programming worth a damn.
Any thoughts?
I have a minor in computer science and have done a good bit of statistical/numerical programming in stuff like C, SAS, and MATLAB, but it looks like other skills are more in demand.
Stuff like...
* C#, PYTHON, etc.
* SQL/T-SQL/MySQL experience
* VBA
* Java
* .NET applications, especially ASP.NET (or MVC within C#, whatever that means)
* experience with Bloomberg machines or Fiserv software tools like APL
* experience with Advent Geneva and RSL
* experience with CSS, HTML, and JavaScript
Now, I am infamous for hating new technologies, and for the most part, I don't even know what most of that crap is. Nonetheless, if it can help launch a hedge fund career, I might be interested.
It's hard to get a good handle on a bunch of different unknown stuff all at one time, so I was hoping someone around here might have some very general advice on what the most efficient way to learn some new programming skills might be.
In other words, out of all that stuff listed above, which particular applications do you think would be the most "low hanging fruit" in terms of getting the most career advancement potential for the smallest investment of time to learn a new computer skill?
My gut instinct tells me that learning ASP.NET, C#, VBA, & SQL should be my highest priorities. And I did manage to get a B in a grad computer science course in database programming using Oracle's MySQL, but I really sucked at it, and I don't feel confident telling anyone that I actually "know" SQL programming worth a damn.
Any thoughts?
This post was edited on 2/23/14 at 1:29 pm
Posted on 2/23/14 at 3:06 pm to Doc Fenton
Buy low. Sell high.
Seriously, I have nno idea. I always wondered what financial programming was done in. Buddy of mine said it could all be done in excel. I lol'd.
Seriously, I have nno idea. I always wondered what financial programming was done in. Buddy of mine said it could all be done in excel. I lol'd.
This post was edited on 2/23/14 at 3:08 pm
Posted on 2/23/14 at 4:44 pm to Doc Fenton
I would say SQL and C# would probably be the most accessible to learn and the most commonly used. I work or a Fin Tech firm that caters to the HF industry and we use a lot of SQL and C# to build out custom valuation fields within our trading system. Developers build out most of these, but our client facing staff as well as some of the ops folks and analysts at our clients do too, so it is useful knowledge.
Posted on 2/23/14 at 5:15 pm to Doc Fenton
I'm pretty sure you can just download Python for free, so from an accessibility standpoint, its tough to beat.
Posted on 2/23/14 at 5:37 pm to Spirit of Dunson
For most financial professionals in investment banking, private equity, hedge funds, LBO firms, distressed debt firms, etc., Excel is all they will ever need. I doubt Warren Buffett uses anything else.
When you get to financial engineering, I think that a lot of quantitative risk management stuff for insurance corporations, reinsurance corporations, institutional investors, etc., use MATLAB or R or C++ to do stress testing, conducting ginormous optimization routines on crazy numbers of dimensions and complex constraints. So like, there will be some quant guy at MetLife in their QRM department running all these ALM (asset liabity modeling) scenarios to try to best model all possible real world contingencies. For the huge institutional asset management firms, they will do similar stuff with portfolio optimization, whether across various asset classes (gold, bonds, EM bonds, equities, etc.), or within a specific class (such as optimizing equity holdings based on something similar to a 3-factor Fama-French model using conditional factors from current macroeconomic conditions to try to predict fluctuations in the spreads for the various premium factors).
For options & derivatives traders, it's a little less clear. For the real experts, doing Black-Scholes valuations (as you can easily do in Excel) is not enough, as there is a ton of gray area in how to properly value and appraise hedging risk for different types of options (such as path-dependent options, barrier options, basket options, etc.), especially as some of them get close to maturity. It's not easy for equity derivatives traders to mark their books for risk in a completely accurate way.
A lot of asset managers like to use options to hedge a little bit of their risk (such as one firm I interviewed with last week, that had a portfolio that engaged in a covered call strategy for large cap equities), and for these guys, I think Excel is mostly fine, but they will still want you to know how to use software tools like Bloomberg's AIM or Fiserv's APL. (I have zero experience on either.)
But at the more elite hedge funds, there will be all kinds of derivatives strategies going on, and they will likely be using something more. And then there are those insane people on the cutting edge of the new algorithmic trading fad, and I think those people probably do a lot of C++ or R programming, but I really don't know too much about that stuff at all.
When you get to financial engineering, I think that a lot of quantitative risk management stuff for insurance corporations, reinsurance corporations, institutional investors, etc., use MATLAB or R or C++ to do stress testing, conducting ginormous optimization routines on crazy numbers of dimensions and complex constraints. So like, there will be some quant guy at MetLife in their QRM department running all these ALM (asset liabity modeling) scenarios to try to best model all possible real world contingencies. For the huge institutional asset management firms, they will do similar stuff with portfolio optimization, whether across various asset classes (gold, bonds, EM bonds, equities, etc.), or within a specific class (such as optimizing equity holdings based on something similar to a 3-factor Fama-French model using conditional factors from current macroeconomic conditions to try to predict fluctuations in the spreads for the various premium factors).
For options & derivatives traders, it's a little less clear. For the real experts, doing Black-Scholes valuations (as you can easily do in Excel) is not enough, as there is a ton of gray area in how to properly value and appraise hedging risk for different types of options (such as path-dependent options, barrier options, basket options, etc.), especially as some of them get close to maturity. It's not easy for equity derivatives traders to mark their books for risk in a completely accurate way.
A lot of asset managers like to use options to hedge a little bit of their risk (such as one firm I interviewed with last week, that had a portfolio that engaged in a covered call strategy for large cap equities), and for these guys, I think Excel is mostly fine, but they will still want you to know how to use software tools like Bloomberg's AIM or Fiserv's APL. (I have zero experience on either.)
But at the more elite hedge funds, there will be all kinds of derivatives strategies going on, and they will likely be using something more. And then there are those insane people on the cutting edge of the new algorithmic trading fad, and I think those people probably do a lot of C++ or R programming, but I really don't know too much about that stuff at all.
Posted on 2/23/14 at 5:40 pm to Chris Farley
quote:
I would say SQL and C# would probably be the most accessible to learn and the most commonly used.
I have a little knowledge of SQL, but don't know much of what C# is all about.
Is it sort of similar to all this .NET stuff? If I had to choose between learning C# stuff, or .NET stuff, would there be much of a difference in deciding to learn one versus the other?
Posted on 2/23/14 at 6:32 pm to Doc Fenton
1. VBA - Definitely the most important to learn, simply from all of the uses it has as well as the ability to use it at any company you work at. VBA can takes seconds, minutes, even hours off of most tasks you'll ever do in Excel.
2. SQL - Most financial firms will have some sort of SQL database due to its flexibility and intuitiveness. You can make tables/views from already available information and adjust it so many different ways. It's also very easy to query as you can write SQL through VBA without having to use another querying system. I personally love SQL, it has made some of the things I have to do so much easier. It's also a lot more intuitive than most stuff in VBA, you just need to know SELECT/FROM/WHERE (what information do I want, where do I want it from, what filters do I put on this information).
3. MATLAB - If you want to go into investment banking, you will need to know or learn MATLAB. I don't know it, nor do I want to, but you need to know MATLAB for IB.
4. C, C+, etc. - I don't know this programming that well by any means but I do know some financial engineers that use it. You'll use this more for the tech side of finance so it won't necessarily be widely used for modeling.
Since you only have a limited amount of time to learn coding, I'd focus specifically on VBA/SQL. You can do soooo much just by knowing those two, and there is never a point you can sit back think there is nothing else to learn. I know people that have coded SQL since it was created back in the 70's/80's and they still don't know 20% of it.
ETA: Just saw that you included Bloomberg. Yes, knowing Bloomberg API (Excel add-in) is almost an absolute must. The ability to pull market information through BBG excel is insane.
2. SQL - Most financial firms will have some sort of SQL database due to its flexibility and intuitiveness. You can make tables/views from already available information and adjust it so many different ways. It's also very easy to query as you can write SQL through VBA without having to use another querying system. I personally love SQL, it has made some of the things I have to do so much easier. It's also a lot more intuitive than most stuff in VBA, you just need to know SELECT/FROM/WHERE (what information do I want, where do I want it from, what filters do I put on this information).
3. MATLAB - If you want to go into investment banking, you will need to know or learn MATLAB. I don't know it, nor do I want to, but you need to know MATLAB for IB.
4. C, C+, etc. - I don't know this programming that well by any means but I do know some financial engineers that use it. You'll use this more for the tech side of finance so it won't necessarily be widely used for modeling.
Since you only have a limited amount of time to learn coding, I'd focus specifically on VBA/SQL. You can do soooo much just by knowing those two, and there is never a point you can sit back think there is nothing else to learn. I know people that have coded SQL since it was created back in the 70's/80's and they still don't know 20% of it.
ETA: Just saw that you included Bloomberg. Yes, knowing Bloomberg API (Excel add-in) is almost an absolute must. The ability to pull market information through BBG excel is insane.
This post was edited on 2/23/14 at 6:38 pm
Posted on 2/23/14 at 6:55 pm to Doc Fenton
If you have experience from SAS, learn how to do that stuff in R. Just Google whatever interests you and it should be on the first page of results. I recommend R Studio as an interface.
VBA and SQL are next most important, I think. Python is very important if you want to do intense data analysis.
VBA and SQL are next most important, I think. Python is very important if you want to do intense data analysis.
Posted on 2/23/14 at 6:59 pm to tigercross
I know I should have done more stuff in R by now, but I was too lazy to get into it.
Thanks though, man.
Thanks though, man.
Posted on 2/23/14 at 7:00 pm to BennyAndTheInkJets
quote:
3. MATLAB - If you want to go into investment banking, you will need to know or learn MATLAB. I don't know it, nor do I want to, but you need to know MATLAB for IB.
Seriously? Wow.
quote:
BennyAndTheInkJets
This post was edited on 2/23/14 at 7:01 pm
Posted on 2/23/14 at 7:05 pm to Doc Fenton
Need to footnote that with friends and old roommates were IB and that is what they have said. This is not first hand knowledge as I've never spent a single second in IB, nor ever want to.
Posted on 2/23/14 at 7:07 pm to BennyAndTheInkJets
quote:
I've never spent a single second in IB, nor ever want to.
I definitely gotta respect that.
Posted on 2/23/14 at 7:14 pm to Doc Fenton
Thanks everyone...
I think this will help me make my next self-improvement plan.
I guess the only other thing I would like to hear to cover my bases would be something about .NET or Advent's software packages, and how much value might be added there, but I can look more into that elsewhere, and I'm getting the impression that I mostly just need to bone up on SQL and VBA, learn some C# coding skills, and then maybe run some simple programs on R or PYTHON if I still have extra time left over.
quote:
Spirit of Dunson
Chris Farley
tight lines
BennyAndTheInkJets
tigercross
I think this will help me make my next self-improvement plan.
I guess the only other thing I would like to hear to cover my bases would be something about .NET or Advent's software packages, and how much value might be added there, but I can look more into that elsewhere, and I'm getting the impression that I mostly just need to bone up on SQL and VBA, learn some C# coding skills, and then maybe run some simple programs on R or PYTHON if I still have extra time left over.
Posted on 2/23/14 at 7:23 pm to Doc Fenton
My impression is that a great deal depends on exactly what kind of work you will be doing. If you're going to do lots of spreadsheet analysis VBA can be great. If you're doing high speed trading then it's C++ (and maybe even assembler) for you. So forth and so on.
I will note that knowing Oracle SQL really well will make you valuable basically anywhere. And if you really know how to code at all then becoming functional with a new language isn't that hard.
I will note that knowing Oracle SQL really well will make you valuable basically anywhere. And if you really know how to code at all then becoming functional with a new language isn't that hard.
Posted on 2/23/14 at 7:26 pm to Doc Fenton
I use Advent's Moxy. It can easily be learned on the job. It's not something I'd spend a ton of time on until you need it. Can't speak for other Advent programs
Posted on 2/23/14 at 8:34 pm to Doc Fenton
I will say this. I've done some pretty hairy numerical analysis with excel. Individual files were 35 mb, and took hours to converge. I've also used MATLAB, VBA, and other tools for similar calcs. If ease of use and manipulability is key, those are your best bets. I've not done any financial stuff, just complex fluid dynamics. I can't imagine they are that different.
Posted on 2/23/14 at 8:50 pm to Spirit of Dunson
I just bought the VBA for Dummies to get me started...I should be able to grind through it quickly and then move onward. I literally have zero VBA knowledge as a basis, but I know there will be plenty of uses in my line of work.
Interested to see how easy it is to learn the coding language.
Interested to see how easy it is to learn the coding language.
Posted on 2/23/14 at 9:09 pm to lynxcat
VBA is a great computing language for engineering and finance.
Over the years I have coded things from simple and complex functions up to finite element work with multidimensional variables and arrays.
Hard core programmers have chuckled at my use of VBA but are no match for the simplicity, GUI (i.e. Excel), speed at implementing, and ability of other laymen to be able to use it (through Excel).
Yes, VBA is great and I learned it from a book (and lots of google searches when I got stuck). Keep your coding modular and well-commented and you can reuse parts of it over and over.
For hard core finance work I would probably find a language that allows me to quickly tie-in and process the most database info quickly, maybe SQL? But I am not a hardcore finance guy nor do I know SQL.
Over the years I have coded things from simple and complex functions up to finite element work with multidimensional variables and arrays.
Hard core programmers have chuckled at my use of VBA but are no match for the simplicity, GUI (i.e. Excel), speed at implementing, and ability of other laymen to be able to use it (through Excel).
Yes, VBA is great and I learned it from a book (and lots of google searches when I got stuck). Keep your coding modular and well-commented and you can reuse parts of it over and over.
For hard core finance work I would probably find a language that allows me to quickly tie-in and process the most database info quickly, maybe SQL? But I am not a hardcore finance guy nor do I know SQL.
Posted on 2/23/14 at 9:44 pm to Bayou Tiger
quote:
and ability of other laymen to be able to use it (through Excel).
This is the key. I can do all kinds of cool shite in SAS and R, but it means next to nothing to the big wigs. Doing it in Excel slightly limits the analysis I can do, but makes things a lot easier for the people who write my paycheck.
This is why dashboarding is a great thing to learn. Hook up PowerPivot to a database, set up some KPIs and send it to the powers that be so they can run their own what-if analyses with a pretty easy UI.
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