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Re It's "immoral" to strategically default on one's mortgage

Posted on 12/12/11 at 10:17 am
Posted by Tiger JJ
Member since Aug 2010
545 posts
Posted on 12/12/11 at 10:17 am
I have argued for several years on this board that underwater "homeowner's" have no moral or civic duty whatsoever to continue to pour money down an inescapable black hole. Some luminaries of the board sharply disagree. Oftentimes, they are unable to muster an argument beyond a lame ad hom "whatsamatter, JJ - you poor?" or something stupid like that.

Anyway, Surowiecki has a great piece on the topic in the New Yorker this week, cast against the backdrop of the American Airlines bankruptcy:

quote:

We normally say that a company “went bankrupt,” implying that it had no choice. But when, recently, American Airlines filed for bankruptcy, it did so deliberately. The airline had four billion dollars in the bank and could have kept paying its bills. But it has been losing money for a while, and its board decided that it was foolish to keep throwing good money after bad. Declaring bankruptcy will trim American’s debt load and allow it to break its union contracts, so that it can slim down and cut costs.

American wasn’t stigmatized for the move. Instead, analysts hailed it as “very smart.” It is now generally accepted that when it’s economically irrational for a company to keep paying its debts it will try to renegotiate them or, failing that, default. For creditors, that’s just the price of business. But when it comes to another set of borrowers the norms are very different. The bursting of the housing bubble has left millions of homeowners across the country owing more than their homes are worth. In some areas, well over half of mortgages are underwater, many so deeply that people owe forty or fifty per cent more than the value of their homes. In other words, a good percentage of Americans are in much the same position as American Airlines: they can still pay their debts, but doing so is like setting a pile of money on fire every month.



quote:

Paying your debts is, as a rule, a good thing. But the double standard here is obvious and offensive. Homeowners are getting lambasted for doing what companies do on a regular basis. Walking away from real-estate obligations in particular is common in the corporate world, and real-estate developers are notorious for abandoning properties that no longer make economic sense. Sometimes the hypocrisy is staggering: last winter, the Mortgage Bankers Association—the very body whose president attacked defaulters for betraying their families and their communities—got its creditors to let it do a short sale of its headquarters, dumping it for thirty-four million dollars less than the value of the building’s mortgage.



I would go so far as to say an underwater family has a moral duty to itself to strategically default or find some other way - legally - to lessen the forward burden.

The author is right - the grandstanding moral hypocrisy has been outrageous.

LINK

This post was edited on 8/22/12 at 3:04 pm
Posted by Teddy Ruxpin
Member since Oct 2006
39553 posts
Posted on 12/12/11 at 10:20 am to
Can't say I disagree with that.
Posted by Francis Marion
Le Bossier
Member since Jul 2011
1536 posts
Posted on 12/12/11 at 11:10 am to
Don't these lenders make the loans on the asumption they are going to make money, they are taking a risk,I see nothing wrong with a strategic default
Posted by Tiger JJ
Member since Aug 2010
545 posts
Posted on 12/12/11 at 11:18 am to
quote:

Don't these lenders make the loans on the asumption they are going to make money, they are taking a risk,I see nothing wrong with a strategic default


Yes, there's a reason the borrowers are charged a premium well in excess of "risk-free" treasuries. There is nothing illegal or immoral about strategically defaulting.
Posted by iAmBatman
The Batcave
Member since Mar 2011
12382 posts
Posted on 12/12/11 at 11:48 am to
I don't agree with a majority of your posts, but I think that strategically defaulting on one's owns mortgage is essentially doing what's best for you and yours. Why keep putting money into a home that isn't worth 50% of what it originally was. If you can handle the bankruptcy ding on your credit, then I'm all for it.
Posted by Y.A. Tittle
Member since Sep 2003
101268 posts
Posted on 12/12/11 at 11:51 am to
quote:

The author is right - the grandstanding moral hypocrisy has been outrageous.


More outrageous than the corresponding efforts to seemingly insure that the effects of poor financial decision making be all but completely painless to the consumers making such poor decisions?
Posted by Shankopotomus
Social Distanced
Member since Feb 2009
21057 posts
Posted on 12/12/11 at 12:06 pm to
quote:

ometimes the hypocrisy is staggering: last winter, the Mortgage Bankers Association—the very body whose president attacked defaulters for betraying their families and their communities—got its creditors to let it do a short sale of its headquarters, dumping it for thirty-four million dollars less than the value of the building’s mortgage.


awesome
Posted by Tiger JJ
Member since Aug 2010
545 posts
Posted on 12/12/11 at 12:09 pm to
quote:

More outrageous than the corresponding efforts to seemingly insure that the effects of poor financial decision making be all but completely painless to the consumers making such poor decisions?


I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know a single person who went through any of this that didn't find it very painful.
Posted by Broke
AKA Buttercup
Member since Sep 2006
65043 posts
Posted on 12/12/11 at 12:14 pm to
I think it's immoral. We used to have "debtors" prison. We should do that again.
Posted by coloradoBengal
Member since Sep 2007
32608 posts
Posted on 12/12/11 at 12:18 pm to
quote:

The author is right - the grandstanding moral hypocrisy has been outrageous.


Agreed.

Its a secured loan. /thread
Posted by Y.A. Tittle
Member since Sep 2003
101268 posts
Posted on 12/12/11 at 12:21 pm to
quote:

I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know a single person who went through any of this that didn't find it very painful.


My personal sample size is one, and this guy seemingly walked away like it was nothing.

I guess I was going off of things I've read about policies being implemented to seemingly "ease the burden" of being able to do this.

I'm willing to concede reality is something else, if so, though.
Posted by Cold Pizza
Member since Sep 2011
7639 posts
Posted on 12/12/11 at 12:25 pm to
Why was American ALLOWED to default? Not trying to argue, just curious.
Posted by Tiger n Miami AU83
Miami
Member since Oct 2007
45656 posts
Posted on 12/12/11 at 12:45 pm to
immoral =

I would do it in a heartbeat if I was in a stituation where it would benefit me. Would never even have to think twice.
Posted by JPLSU1981
Baton Rouge
Member since Oct 2005
26233 posts
Posted on 12/12/11 at 12:59 pm to
I don't know that I agree or disagree with your assertion (I really don't as I can see both sides), but I do know that principally-speaking I believe when someone borrows money from someone, no matter what the amount, they should have to pay them back in full... And certainly they shouldn't leave the person that lent them the money in the first place holding all the losses while the borrower walks away clean.

This post was edited on 12/12/11 at 1:03 pm
Posted by Tiger JJ
Member since Aug 2010
545 posts
Posted on 12/12/11 at 1:11 pm to
quote:

My personal sample size is one, and this guy seemingly walked away like it was nothing.


Without his credit taking a hit? How? A short sale is probably a minimum of 2 years of a severe ding to your credit. An actually consummated foreclosure is more like a 7-year black hole.
Posted by Tiger JJ
Member since Aug 2010
545 posts
Posted on 12/12/11 at 1:12 pm to
quote:

but I do know that principally-speaking I believe when someone borrows money from someone, no matter what the amount, they should have to pay them back in full.


So does that apply for companies also?

quote:

And certainly they shouldn't leave the person that lent them the money in the first place holding all the losses while the borrower walks away clean.


But they didn't walk away clean. And they left the lender with EXACTLY what was provided for in the security agreement attached to the note - the house!
Posted by Tiger n Miami AU83
Miami
Member since Oct 2007
45656 posts
Posted on 12/12/11 at 1:26 pm to
quote:

And they left the lender with EXACTLY what was provided for in the security agreement attached to the note - the house!


Exactly. A lender makes a business decision to provide a loan with real estate as collateral. The borrower has a choice each and every month. Pay the note or give up the collateral.

Nothing moral about this at all and nothing to do with an "obligation". As long as the borrower believes it is in their best interest to pay the note, the borrower pays. If a time comes when the borrower does not believe it is in their best interest, they SHOULD cease to pay (they are stupid if they do not) and the collateral goes to the lender as agreed upon from the start.

It is not complicated and the moral part is laughable.
Posted by VABuckeye
Naples, FL
Member since Dec 2007
35473 posts
Posted on 12/12/11 at 1:39 pm to
quote:

Exactly. A lender makes a business decision to provide a loan with real estate as collateral. The borrower has a choice each and every month. Pay the note or give up the collateral.


The problem is that it destroys your credit rating. A business that files bankrupcty is free to stay in business.
Posted by Tiger JJ
Member since Aug 2010
545 posts
Posted on 12/12/11 at 1:44 pm to
quote:

The problem is that it destroys your credit rating. A business that files bankrupcty is free to stay in business.


I don't understand your point. Yes, defaulting on a mortgage obligation impairs your credit to varying degrees, depending on how far it goes. But you aren't "kept out of business" - rather, your access to credit becomes more limited/expensive. Businesses may or may not experience the same thing.

A relatively low percentage of borrowers actually file for BK as part of their foreclosure, so it isn't apples to apples to begin with.

You can bet your arse that ANY debtor that simply defaults pays immediate market penalties. e.g. if GE defaulted on a roll of their commercial paper tomorrow, the credit markets would effectively be shut off for them.
Posted by Tiger n Miami AU83
Miami
Member since Oct 2007
45656 posts
Posted on 12/12/11 at 1:44 pm to
quote:

The problem is that it destroys your credit rating.


Temporarily. I know exactly 1 person (a couple) that defaulted on a home (investment property and strategic default). I told them to do it a full year before they finally did. That was 3+ years ago. The husband told me about 6 months ago his credit score was back to 680-690, approaching 700 again.

That all goes into the decision making process of is it in my best interest to pay this note each month.
This post was edited on 12/12/11 at 1:46 pm
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