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Run Heavy Personnel Discussion - 2TE/1WR Formation
Posted on 9/15/14 at 8:31 am
Posted on 9/15/14 at 8:31 am
We run I formation and two tight ends. We do this-ostensibly-to gain a numbers advantage by shading the C Gap with blockers to pull a guard or send a fullback through on edge runs.
The problem as I see it and that I'd like to discuss is that LSU runs a single receiver route, a run play, or a back on a circle/wheel out of this formation. We are not creative and do not throw to the Tight Ends from this formation grouping.
The numbers advantage gained by personnel at the point of attack is negated by the lack of diversity in your playcalling. If you are a defensive coordinator and you see LSU line up TE heavy shading the C Gaps then you are going to align with a single high safety to bracket coverage on the only receiver. Your other Safety and Corner can both crowd the line to support the run with the responsibility to check the blocking back or tailback on the wheel/circle.
So, you have three-four players at skill spots (QB, lone WR, 1-2 FB/RB) on offense uninvolved. As a defensive coordinator, you've aligned 9 men in the box. Against 7 blockers at the point of attack (8 max if you run the FB).
9 on 7 or even 9 on 8 is an advantage for the defense. Every. Single. Time. There is no argument that can support incorrect math. That math is not incorrect.
I do not understand why we don't see diversity in playcalls out of the jumbo/run heavy sets if nothing else than to create honesty in defensive alignment or a momentary read off a PA look.
There are smart folks here and elsewhere who have yet to help me grasp an understanding of what I've described and how it works to our advantage when LSU has the ball on offense.
ETA: This is not meant as a flame or coaches suck post, or anything of the sort. I am genuinely interested in understanding how this process works to our advantage and I have not found an explanation.
The problem as I see it and that I'd like to discuss is that LSU runs a single receiver route, a run play, or a back on a circle/wheel out of this formation. We are not creative and do not throw to the Tight Ends from this formation grouping.
The numbers advantage gained by personnel at the point of attack is negated by the lack of diversity in your playcalling. If you are a defensive coordinator and you see LSU line up TE heavy shading the C Gaps then you are going to align with a single high safety to bracket coverage on the only receiver. Your other Safety and Corner can both crowd the line to support the run with the responsibility to check the blocking back or tailback on the wheel/circle.
So, you have three-four players at skill spots (QB, lone WR, 1-2 FB/RB) on offense uninvolved. As a defensive coordinator, you've aligned 9 men in the box. Against 7 blockers at the point of attack (8 max if you run the FB).
9 on 7 or even 9 on 8 is an advantage for the defense. Every. Single. Time. There is no argument that can support incorrect math. That math is not incorrect.
I do not understand why we don't see diversity in playcalls out of the jumbo/run heavy sets if nothing else than to create honesty in defensive alignment or a momentary read off a PA look.
There are smart folks here and elsewhere who have yet to help me grasp an understanding of what I've described and how it works to our advantage when LSU has the ball on offense.
ETA: This is not meant as a flame or coaches suck post, or anything of the sort. I am genuinely interested in understanding how this process works to our advantage and I have not found an explanation.
This post was edited on 9/15/14 at 8:36 am
14
Posted on 9/15/14 at 8:36 am to GFunk
I look at this formation as the "body blows" of football. In this age of high flying spread, air raid offenses, it is a traditional mindset that Miles still loves to employ. Smash mouth football wears down a defense physically and mentally. When you see the d-line caving in during the second half, it's because they have had TE's and FB's smashing them into the ground over and over. It's boring to watch, but Miles' record speaks for itself.
Posted on 9/15/14 at 8:38 am to GFunk
We don't throw to the TE "yet"
Posted on 9/15/14 at 8:40 am to GFunk
quote:
I do not understand why we don't see diversity in playcalls out of the jumbo/run heavy sets if nothing else than to create honesty in defensive alignment or a momentary read off a PA look.
i don't understand why our staff thinks spreading the field is taboo...we can still run out of 3 wr formations...to date more effectively.
You seem to know football so i want to ask you this. Should we widen our splits on the line? Are they wide? Seems like people stack the box against Auburn and their linemen have wide splits. i know its completely different because they threaten the edges more than us.
Posted on 9/15/14 at 8:40 am to GFunk
We like to let you know you are about to get hit in the mouth before we actually hit you in the mouth.
There is a sincere want to bring the imposition of our will the the forefront of the contest, not necessarily in a deceitful manner. Or something like that.
There is a sincere want to bring the imposition of our will the the forefront of the contest, not necessarily in a deceitful manner. Or something like that.
Posted on 9/15/14 at 8:43 am to BigEdLSU
quote:
There is a sincere want to bring the imposition of our will the the forefront of the contest, not necessarily in a deceitful manner.
I know you are making fun of Miles-speak, but for better or worse, he believes in the psychological power of this mindset. It's pretty debilitating to a defense when you know what play is coming and you still get runover. Maybe not in the first or second quarter when their D is fresh, but in the second half I believe you see the benefits.
Posted on 9/15/14 at 8:43 am to GFunk
You're absolutely right. Without the threat of a PA pass to a TE or FB that formation is limited. Unfortunately our tight ends were ineffective against the one good team we've played.
I think Cam will have wrinkles for our SEC opponents that involve the tight ends more...We just have to hope that they catch it
I think Cam will have wrinkles for our SEC opponents that involve the tight ends more...We just have to hope that they catch it
Posted on 9/15/14 at 8:44 am to Jaydeaux
quote:
Jaydeaux
quote:
We don't throw to the TE "yet"
So you feel as if we are competent enough on offense after three games that we can simply not work on that entire aspect of the game (short to intermediate passing and route running from positions that have combined to catch less than 1 pass per game in the last 30 games or so) until "we need it"?
Based on the results against Wisconsin-the only time we targeted the TE's this year so far-you think that is advisable?
I disagree. The offense from a functional standpoint is not effective and the kids running it not experienced enough not to try to work on all parts of our game when the lights are on in Tiger Stadium. Which we seemed to do vs SHSU.
But to your point, your explanation simply doesn't make a lot of sense in context with our youth, inexperience, and our need for reps.
Posted on 9/15/14 at 8:45 am to toosleaux
quote:
It's pretty debilitating to a defense when you know what play is coming and you still get runover.
has not been the case this year though
Posted on 9/15/14 at 8:45 am to BigEdLSU
quote:
There is a sincere want to bring the imposition of our will the the forefront of the contest, not necessarily in a deceitful manner. Or something like that.
You speak his language.
Posted on 9/15/14 at 8:46 am to GFunk
When the defense has 9 players in the box that does mean they outnumber the offense at the point of attack. The backside players are often frozen by the QB if he sells the fake and rolls out the opposite direction. You can run against a stacked front you just have to be able to execute. If you watch what LSU has done they have faked right and then slipped the fullback out and rolled the QB the opposite direction. Ideally you would have the TE on the opposite side provide an intermediate option 10-15 yards down the field as well.
I think the play that we saw against Sam Houston State with the read option will become a big part of our offense. We will also see more Hilliard and Williams at Fullback with Fournette at tailback and running the read option with the fullback dive up the middle and the sprint option with the QB and fournette wide. They have set this play up in the game and have been successful with it. They basically have shut it down since there hasnt been a need due to the score but I think you will see it.
I am not a proponent of the secret playbook but I think we have seen some formations and plays that will be used heavily in the closer games. Based on our tendencies we have shown I think you will see more tight end over the middle as we get into the next few games. There should be some big play opportunities.
I think the play that we saw against Sam Houston State with the read option will become a big part of our offense. We will also see more Hilliard and Williams at Fullback with Fournette at tailback and running the read option with the fullback dive up the middle and the sprint option with the QB and fournette wide. They have set this play up in the game and have been successful with it. They basically have shut it down since there hasnt been a need due to the score but I think you will see it.
I am not a proponent of the secret playbook but I think we have seen some formations and plays that will be used heavily in the closer games. Based on our tendencies we have shown I think you will see more tight end over the middle as we get into the next few games. There should be some big play opportunities.
Posted on 9/15/14 at 8:46 am to Jaydeaux
quote:
We don't throw to the TE "yet"
When we do, we're going to kill one of our future opponents.
Posted on 9/15/14 at 8:46 am to Topwater Trout
quote:
has not been the case this year though
I have to disagree. Our rungame has been stifled in the first half, but if you look at the run production by quarters, you will see the numbers drastically shoot up in the second half.
Posted on 9/15/14 at 8:47 am to DallasTiger45
I wonder if the variation with Hillard at FB, Williams at TB, and using Fournette as a wingback (he's shown he can catch...) has crossed their minds...
Posted on 9/15/14 at 8:50 am to toosleaux
quote:
you will see the numbers drastically shoot up in the second half.
Against Wisconsin we never ran effectively out of this formation. When we spread the field late in the 3rd quarter is when we hurt them with the run.
Posted on 9/15/14 at 8:51 am to GFunk
None of this is new to us man
Posted on 9/15/14 at 8:54 am to vl100butch
I get where OP is going and I agree.
We set our qb up for failure b/c when he does throw, there's one guy going out for a pass, and he's usually running for his life b/c of the numbers inside. his 1 reciever isn't open so he has to run or throw it away. It's just stupid play calling. We had a 3rd and 7 where 4 guys ran out for passes and only 1 ran a route pass 7 yards, and he was wide open for the first, but Jennings only looked to the other side of the field where the 3 guys ran 5 yard patterns.
Jennings has shown he can make decent throws and decisions for the most part. Play calls like that where 1 guy goes out make it seem like they have absolutely no faith in his decision making.
Seems like our coaches are doing everything they can to put him in positions to not make mistakes. Quit babying the kid and let him play.
We set our qb up for failure b/c when he does throw, there's one guy going out for a pass, and he's usually running for his life b/c of the numbers inside. his 1 reciever isn't open so he has to run or throw it away. It's just stupid play calling. We had a 3rd and 7 where 4 guys ran out for passes and only 1 ran a route pass 7 yards, and he was wide open for the first, but Jennings only looked to the other side of the field where the 3 guys ran 5 yard patterns.
Jennings has shown he can make decent throws and decisions for the most part. Play calls like that where 1 guy goes out make it seem like they have absolutely no faith in his decision making.
Seems like our coaches are doing everything they can to put him in positions to not make mistakes. Quit babying the kid and let him play.
Posted on 9/15/14 at 9:05 am to TeddyPadillac
Can our tight ends catch the ball? So far I haven't seen it!
Posted on 9/15/14 at 9:07 am to GFunk
quote:I get your post, but just wanted to point out that there is this 7:11
So, you have three-four players at skill spots (QB, lone WR, 1-2 FB/RB) on offense uninvolved. As a defensive coordinator, you've aligned 9 men in the box. Against 7 blockers at the point of attack (8 max if you run the FB).
9 on 7 or even 9 on 8 is an advantage for the defense. Every. Single. Time. There is no argument that can support incorrect math. That math is not incorrect.
I do not understand why we don't see diversity in playcalls out of the jumbo/run heavy sets if nothing else than to create honesty in defensive alignment or a momentary read off a PA look.
Posted on 9/15/14 at 9:08 am to GFunk
great post.
i agree. i'm not sure the reasoning for it time after time without the threat of throwing to the TE.
when they do pass out of it, i understand the need for max protect with an inexperienced QB but without play action safeties are gonna help corners and the numbers again shift advantage to the defense.
hell i'd even settle for a TE just to run a route to take the safety's attn.
the only thing would be is if we are setting things up for later in the season.
one of my favorite playcalls in the Miles era was in the NC game vs ohio state, that little slide off by dickson in the end zone. we would kill teams with that. especially in short yardage and red zone.
i agree. i'm not sure the reasoning for it time after time without the threat of throwing to the TE.
when they do pass out of it, i understand the need for max protect with an inexperienced QB but without play action safeties are gonna help corners and the numbers again shift advantage to the defense.
hell i'd even settle for a TE just to run a route to take the safety's attn.
the only thing would be is if we are setting things up for later in the season.
one of my favorite playcalls in the Miles era was in the NC game vs ohio state, that little slide off by dickson in the end zone. we would kill teams with that. especially in short yardage and red zone.
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