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Dual-factor Bodybuilding routine for Intermediate and Advanced lifters
Posted on 7/17/17 at 4:43 pm
Posted on 7/17/17 at 4:43 pm
This routine was not created by me. This was created by a guy that goes by the Screen Name Weighted Chinup. Super nice guy and super knowledgable about training. Listen to what he says and do the program as is for a few meso-cycles. Then and only then should you make changes.
This is for the guys that want to lift 5-6 days a week and think bro splits are awesome….newsflash, they suck.
This is a bodybuilding routine for intermediate and advanced lifters whose primary goals are aesthetics and hypertrophy.
Routine is 6 days a week with 1 rest day.
About this program:
(1) This program is not a traditional bodypart split. We are structuring our workouts around movements. You will look forward to each of your sessions because they will likely all involve a muscle or at least movement you enjoy training. This will play a huge role in your success.
(2) Frequency is high. Almost every muscle is being worked every day and all your lifts are going to be hit 3x a week. You will make dramatic improvements in your main lifts as well as see fantastic size gains and growth from the increased frequency (muscle protein synthesis will stay high throughout the week).
(3) This routine is dual factor. Most bodybuilding routines are absurdly simple to the point where you are training and recovering, training and recovering, etc. This is not viable for intermediate and advanced lifters. We incorporate another variable, fatigue (dual factor approach) so you can make optimal progress.
(4) This routine will make use of scheduled deloads as another measure to manage fatigue from the workload.
(5) Daily undulating periodization is used for this program as a periodization technique. You will be changing intensity and volume requirements for each workout every day a session is repeated during the week. The changes will be wave like. This is ideal for intermediate and advanced lifters since progress is not always made in a linear fashion past a certain point.
(6) Daily and weekly volume requirements for each lift was designed using prilepins chart.
Recommended Exercise Selection:
Front Squat, Romanian Deadlift, Weighted Chinup, Weighted Dips, Incline Barbell Bench, Weighted Pullup
Accessory and isolation movements:
rear delt fly or reverse flies, prone y-raises (just use a very tiny amount of weight for these), tricep pressdown, dumbbell lateral raise, seated row, leg ext, leg curl, bicep curls, scap push ups
No failure.
This routine as mentioned earlier is intended primarily for hypertrophy but I always intend to strike a good balance between hypertrophy and performance and I feel this lift selection addresses both amicably with more emphasis towards aesthetics.
Routine is 6 days a week with 1 rest day in a week. You can have a rest day at the end of the week on Sunday or you can take your rest during the week whenever you feel like it if you wish.
Day 1:
Front Squat @ 80% 1RM 3x8
Weighted Dips @ 80% 1RM 3x8
Weighted Chinup @ 80% 1RM 3x8
Leg extensions 3x10, Tricep pressdown 3x15, Lying Cable Curl 3x10, Reverse flies 3x15
Day 2:
Incline Barbell Bench @ 80% 1RM 3x8
Weighted Pullups @ 80% 1RM 3x8
Romanian Deadlift @ 80% 1RM 3x8
Leg curl 3x10, Seated Row 3x6, Dumbbell Lateral Raise 3x25, Prone y-raises
Day 3:
Front Squat @ 85% 1RM 3x5
Weighted Dips @ 85% 1RM 3x5
Weighted Chinup @ 85% 1RM 3x5
Leg extensions 3x10, Tricep pressdown 3x15, Lying Cable Curl 3x10, Reverse flies 3x15
Day 4:
Incline Barbell Bench @ 85% 1RM 3x5
Weighted Pullups @ 85% 1RM 3x5
Romanian Deadlift @ 85% 1RM 3x5
Leg curl 3x10, Seated Row 3x6, Dumbbell Lateral Raise 3x25, Prone y-raises
Day 5:
Front Squat @ 75% 1RM 3x10
Weighted Dips @ 75% 1RM 3x10
Weighted Chinup @ 75% 1RM 3x10
Leg extensions 3x10, Tricep pressdown 3x15, Lying Cable Curl 3x10, Reverse flies 3x15
Day 6:
Incline Barbell Bench @ 75% 1RM 3x10
Weighted Pullups @ 75% 1RM 3x10
Romanian Deadlift @ 75% 1RM 3x10
Leg curl 3x10, Seated Row 3x6, Dumbbell Lateral Raise 3x25, Prone y-raises
Progression:
Attempt to add either weight or an additional rep(s) every week for each movement at each intensity.
Deloading:
Every 3-4 weeks. 6 week max meso cycles
either take a week off from the gym
or alternatively
go to the gym but only perform the first set for each of your lifts. Don't attempt to increase poundage's or volume.
Time off is far more effective at dissipating fatigue but I only include the second option because many lifters refuse to take any time off from the gym.
You WILL need a deload at some point.To put it into perspective, in a whole week you are doing about 70 total reps for EACH of your main movements with intensity undulating around 75-85%, with each movement being trained 3x in a single week.
Don't let this put you off, this routine is periodized and designed to be sustainable, but one of the methods used is the scheduled deload.
This is for the guys that want to lift 5-6 days a week and think bro splits are awesome….newsflash, they suck.
This is a bodybuilding routine for intermediate and advanced lifters whose primary goals are aesthetics and hypertrophy.
Routine is 6 days a week with 1 rest day.
About this program:
(1) This program is not a traditional bodypart split. We are structuring our workouts around movements. You will look forward to each of your sessions because they will likely all involve a muscle or at least movement you enjoy training. This will play a huge role in your success.
(2) Frequency is high. Almost every muscle is being worked every day and all your lifts are going to be hit 3x a week. You will make dramatic improvements in your main lifts as well as see fantastic size gains and growth from the increased frequency (muscle protein synthesis will stay high throughout the week).
(3) This routine is dual factor. Most bodybuilding routines are absurdly simple to the point where you are training and recovering, training and recovering, etc. This is not viable for intermediate and advanced lifters. We incorporate another variable, fatigue (dual factor approach) so you can make optimal progress.
(4) This routine will make use of scheduled deloads as another measure to manage fatigue from the workload.
(5) Daily undulating periodization is used for this program as a periodization technique. You will be changing intensity and volume requirements for each workout every day a session is repeated during the week. The changes will be wave like. This is ideal for intermediate and advanced lifters since progress is not always made in a linear fashion past a certain point.
(6) Daily and weekly volume requirements for each lift was designed using prilepins chart.
Recommended Exercise Selection:
Front Squat, Romanian Deadlift, Weighted Chinup, Weighted Dips, Incline Barbell Bench, Weighted Pullup
Accessory and isolation movements:
rear delt fly or reverse flies, prone y-raises (just use a very tiny amount of weight for these), tricep pressdown, dumbbell lateral raise, seated row, leg ext, leg curl, bicep curls, scap push ups
No failure.
This routine as mentioned earlier is intended primarily for hypertrophy but I always intend to strike a good balance between hypertrophy and performance and I feel this lift selection addresses both amicably with more emphasis towards aesthetics.
Routine is 6 days a week with 1 rest day in a week. You can have a rest day at the end of the week on Sunday or you can take your rest during the week whenever you feel like it if you wish.
Day 1:
Front Squat @ 80% 1RM 3x8
Weighted Dips @ 80% 1RM 3x8
Weighted Chinup @ 80% 1RM 3x8
Leg extensions 3x10, Tricep pressdown 3x15, Lying Cable Curl 3x10, Reverse flies 3x15
Day 2:
Incline Barbell Bench @ 80% 1RM 3x8
Weighted Pullups @ 80% 1RM 3x8
Romanian Deadlift @ 80% 1RM 3x8
Leg curl 3x10, Seated Row 3x6, Dumbbell Lateral Raise 3x25, Prone y-raises
Day 3:
Front Squat @ 85% 1RM 3x5
Weighted Dips @ 85% 1RM 3x5
Weighted Chinup @ 85% 1RM 3x5
Leg extensions 3x10, Tricep pressdown 3x15, Lying Cable Curl 3x10, Reverse flies 3x15
Day 4:
Incline Barbell Bench @ 85% 1RM 3x5
Weighted Pullups @ 85% 1RM 3x5
Romanian Deadlift @ 85% 1RM 3x5
Leg curl 3x10, Seated Row 3x6, Dumbbell Lateral Raise 3x25, Prone y-raises
Day 5:
Front Squat @ 75% 1RM 3x10
Weighted Dips @ 75% 1RM 3x10
Weighted Chinup @ 75% 1RM 3x10
Leg extensions 3x10, Tricep pressdown 3x15, Lying Cable Curl 3x10, Reverse flies 3x15
Day 6:
Incline Barbell Bench @ 75% 1RM 3x10
Weighted Pullups @ 75% 1RM 3x10
Romanian Deadlift @ 75% 1RM 3x10
Leg curl 3x10, Seated Row 3x6, Dumbbell Lateral Raise 3x25, Prone y-raises
Progression:
Attempt to add either weight or an additional rep(s) every week for each movement at each intensity.
Deloading:
Every 3-4 weeks. 6 week max meso cycles
either take a week off from the gym
or alternatively
go to the gym but only perform the first set for each of your lifts. Don't attempt to increase poundage's or volume.
Time off is far more effective at dissipating fatigue but I only include the second option because many lifters refuse to take any time off from the gym.
You WILL need a deload at some point.To put it into perspective, in a whole week you are doing about 70 total reps for EACH of your main movements with intensity undulating around 75-85%, with each movement being trained 3x in a single week.
Don't let this put you off, this routine is periodized and designed to be sustainable, but one of the methods used is the scheduled deload.
2
Posted on 7/17/17 at 4:43 pm to lsu777
Miscellaneous: Intensity, Workout Structure, and Auto-Regulation Techniques
In order to get the most out of any program, you must enjoy what you are doing. This post will attempt to address a few optional concepts a lifter can utilize in order to make each workout more enjoyable and productive for them and even more suitable to their preferences.
That being said, I always advocate following the authors instructions for any routine and would not recommend making changes until you have a good understanding of the routine and have been running it for at least several months or even longer.
Intensity:
I stated in the OP that this is a hypertrophy routine foremost. The intensities we are undulating between are 75%,80%,and 85%. Basically, between a 5-10RM. My rationale for choosing this intensity range for this routine was because it is simply the most time efficient intensity for the purposes of hypertrophy.
Zatsiorsky:
That being said, higher intensities can be just as effective for hypertrophy, it just might not be as TIME EFFICIENT because although rate of protein degradation is high, the number of repetitions performed is low, so total degraded protein (hypertrophy) could be low if not enough work is performed.
This can be solved by simply doing more reps at the higher intensity, but this is more time consuming.
If you want more emphasis towards performance you can choose to use intensities such as 80%,85%,and 90-95% and undulate between these. See my training log for the volume targets I used for higher intensities (80-90%).
Workout Structure:
You can structure the lifts performed for each of the 2 workouts that are repeated differently if you prefer, however, you must maintain 2 variables when it comes to workout structure:
(1) each lift should be trained 3x a week
(2) every muscle or almost every muscle should get hit every day you're in the gym
You also need to make sure the workouts are sustainable. Trying to do something like Incline and Front Squat and Weighted Pullups on the same day is very challenging, but doing something like front squat and dips and chinups on the same day is a lot more viable and sustainable.
Be smart with this and reasonable as well, this routine is hard enough.
My current recommendation based on the lift selection I suggested is to use the exact same structure I outlined for the workouts. IME it is the most sustainable.
Auto-Regulation Techniques:
This can be a thread on it's own but I want to make mention of a few fun and simple to incorporate auto-regulation techniques a lifter can implement on this routine and possibly see benefits from.
These are very optional.
(1) Regulate accessory work based on fatigue and time. If you are really fatigued, feeling bad, tired, didn't get enough food, low on time, have to go work, etc then you can just perform the main 3 lifts for each workout and go home, you can skip the accessory work and isolation.
If you frequently are low on time when you're training you can incorporate this. However, at the minimum you should at least make sure each workouts accessory movements get performed at least 2x a week (this means you can have 2 days a week where you don't perform accessory movements). I wouldn't go any lower and ideally I would recommend doing accessory work as indicated in the OP (everyday).
(2) Use total tonnage requirements for each lift instead of aiming for a specific number of reps per set.
Example:
Instead of aiming for Front Squat 3x5 @ 85%, do Front Squat @ 85% for 15 total reps. The amount of total tonnage is the exact same, however you are not focused on getting a certain number of reps in each set.
Simply do as many sets as you need to achieve your total volume goal. It might look something like 5,4,3,3. The same amount of work is performed, you are just taking as many sets as you need to achieve it instead of requiring you to get a certain number of reps per set.
You can reduce fatigue by exploding a volume goal across more sets too.
This is a fantastic technique and I am seriously considering reverting to this as my standard way of handling volume. I have had fantastic success with this in the past.
(3) RPE. Look it up.
will demonstrate that this routine is challenging as frick objectively using the numbers.
There are 6 main lifts trained in a single week.
Each lift is trained 3 times a week at the following intensities with the following volume requirement: 3x8 @ 80% , 3x5 @ 85% , 3x10 @ 75%
Weekly Volume for Each Lift:
Front Squat: 69 total reps with intensity ranging from 80%, 85%, 75%
Romanian Deadlift: 69 total reps with intensity ranging from 80%, 85%, 75%
Weighted Dips: 69 total reps with intensity ranging from 80%, 85%, 75%
Incline Barbell Bench: 69 total reps with intensity ranging from 80%, 85%, 75%
Weighted Chinup: 69 total reps with intensity ranging from 80%, 85%, 75%
Weighted Pullup: 69 total reps with intensity ranging from 80%, 85%, 75%
Almost 70 total reps performed for each lift in a single week with intensity going as high as 85%...that is not light weight, and that is a very high weekly volume relative to intensity.
This doesn't include the volume from accessory and isolation work btw......workout 1 has about 150 total reps from accessory and iso work and workout 2 has about 120 repetitions performed. Accessory and isolation work is performed 3x a week....although the intensity there is low.
For those familiar with Prilepins Chart (this is the tool I used to handle loading):
These are the WEEKLY INOL's for each lift:
Front Squat: INOL 3.4
Romanian Deadlift: INOL 3.4
Weighted Dips: INOL 3.4
Incline Barbell Bench: INOL 3.4
Weighted Chinup: INOL 3.4
Weighted Pullup: INOL 3.4
What does this mean in the real world?
In order to get the most out of any program, you must enjoy what you are doing. This post will attempt to address a few optional concepts a lifter can utilize in order to make each workout more enjoyable and productive for them and even more suitable to their preferences.
That being said, I always advocate following the authors instructions for any routine and would not recommend making changes until you have a good understanding of the routine and have been running it for at least several months or even longer.
Intensity:
I stated in the OP that this is a hypertrophy routine foremost. The intensities we are undulating between are 75%,80%,and 85%. Basically, between a 5-10RM. My rationale for choosing this intensity range for this routine was because it is simply the most time efficient intensity for the purposes of hypertrophy.
Zatsiorsky:
That being said, higher intensities can be just as effective for hypertrophy, it just might not be as TIME EFFICIENT because although rate of protein degradation is high, the number of repetitions performed is low, so total degraded protein (hypertrophy) could be low if not enough work is performed.
This can be solved by simply doing more reps at the higher intensity, but this is more time consuming.
If you want more emphasis towards performance you can choose to use intensities such as 80%,85%,and 90-95% and undulate between these. See my training log for the volume targets I used for higher intensities (80-90%).
Workout Structure:
You can structure the lifts performed for each of the 2 workouts that are repeated differently if you prefer, however, you must maintain 2 variables when it comes to workout structure:
(1) each lift should be trained 3x a week
(2) every muscle or almost every muscle should get hit every day you're in the gym
You also need to make sure the workouts are sustainable. Trying to do something like Incline and Front Squat and Weighted Pullups on the same day is very challenging, but doing something like front squat and dips and chinups on the same day is a lot more viable and sustainable.
Be smart with this and reasonable as well, this routine is hard enough.
My current recommendation based on the lift selection I suggested is to use the exact same structure I outlined for the workouts. IME it is the most sustainable.
Auto-Regulation Techniques:
This can be a thread on it's own but I want to make mention of a few fun and simple to incorporate auto-regulation techniques a lifter can implement on this routine and possibly see benefits from.
These are very optional.
(1) Regulate accessory work based on fatigue and time. If you are really fatigued, feeling bad, tired, didn't get enough food, low on time, have to go work, etc then you can just perform the main 3 lifts for each workout and go home, you can skip the accessory work and isolation.
If you frequently are low on time when you're training you can incorporate this. However, at the minimum you should at least make sure each workouts accessory movements get performed at least 2x a week (this means you can have 2 days a week where you don't perform accessory movements). I wouldn't go any lower and ideally I would recommend doing accessory work as indicated in the OP (everyday).
(2) Use total tonnage requirements for each lift instead of aiming for a specific number of reps per set.
Example:
Instead of aiming for Front Squat 3x5 @ 85%, do Front Squat @ 85% for 15 total reps. The amount of total tonnage is the exact same, however you are not focused on getting a certain number of reps in each set.
Simply do as many sets as you need to achieve your total volume goal. It might look something like 5,4,3,3. The same amount of work is performed, you are just taking as many sets as you need to achieve it instead of requiring you to get a certain number of reps per set.
You can reduce fatigue by exploding a volume goal across more sets too.
This is a fantastic technique and I am seriously considering reverting to this as my standard way of handling volume. I have had fantastic success with this in the past.
(3) RPE. Look it up.
will demonstrate that this routine is challenging as frick objectively using the numbers.
There are 6 main lifts trained in a single week.
Each lift is trained 3 times a week at the following intensities with the following volume requirement: 3x8 @ 80% , 3x5 @ 85% , 3x10 @ 75%
Weekly Volume for Each Lift:
Front Squat: 69 total reps with intensity ranging from 80%, 85%, 75%
Romanian Deadlift: 69 total reps with intensity ranging from 80%, 85%, 75%
Weighted Dips: 69 total reps with intensity ranging from 80%, 85%, 75%
Incline Barbell Bench: 69 total reps with intensity ranging from 80%, 85%, 75%
Weighted Chinup: 69 total reps with intensity ranging from 80%, 85%, 75%
Weighted Pullup: 69 total reps with intensity ranging from 80%, 85%, 75%
Almost 70 total reps performed for each lift in a single week with intensity going as high as 85%...that is not light weight, and that is a very high weekly volume relative to intensity.
This doesn't include the volume from accessory and isolation work btw......workout 1 has about 150 total reps from accessory and iso work and workout 2 has about 120 repetitions performed. Accessory and isolation work is performed 3x a week....although the intensity there is low.
For those familiar with Prilepins Chart (this is the tool I used to handle loading):
These are the WEEKLY INOL's for each lift:
Front Squat: INOL 3.4
Romanian Deadlift: INOL 3.4
Weighted Dips: INOL 3.4
Incline Barbell Bench: INOL 3.4
Weighted Chinup: INOL 3.4
Weighted Pullup: INOL 3.4
What does this mean in the real world?
This post was edited on 7/17/17 at 4:49 pm
Posted on 7/17/17 at 4:44 pm to lsu777
One more thing to consider: Prilepins chart was originally created for oly lifts, not conventional bodybuilding lifts or power lifts.....but my lift selection is kind of forgiving so I know for certain that these volume requirements are sustainable for this lift selection.
This routine is challenging, but you will make dramatic increases in strength and size. I challenge anyone to try this and tell me they weren't impressed by the increases in strength and more importantly, the dramatic improvements in their physique.
For those interested in some more technical information about this routine and it's programming:
I want to mention a few things regarding the main periodization technique used in this routine, DUP.
I mentioned most of this in the OP but thought an additional post with some more info wouldn't hurt.
DUP(daily undulating periodization) was utilized because it is my preferred choice for intermediate and advanced lifters.
The primary reason is because once a lifter is at a certain stage in their development (intermediate/advanced stage), progress is not always going to show up in a linear fashion. Undulating intensity and volume requirements simply means that the volume and intensity requirements are changing (gradually) in a 'wave' like fashion (undulating, not linear). In this case, we are making these changes every day a session is repeated during the week.
You can see it in action by looking at the routine.
Notice how Intensity and Volume requirements are changing everyday a session is repeated during the week.
The changes are gradual but it's not linear, they are wave like. This non-linear approach is ideal for intermediate and advanced guys for the same reason mentioned earlier.
Once again, intermediate/advanced guys won't always see gains in a linear fashion and changing intensity and volume requirements gradually and in a wave like/non-linear fashion addresses this, changing it on the daily takes the concept a step further.
Update: I no longer recommend having weighted dips in the main lift selection. Use Flat Barbell Bench instead.
There are several reasons for this change: first, dips have unfamiliar mobility requirements for a lot of lifters to do safely weighted. This problem becomes compounded when you consider the frequency we train them.
And lastly, I feel having Flat Barbell Bench in place of dips makes for a more balanced routine overall. There are plenty of other 'weighted' lifts in the lift selection as is.
I also want to emphasize the importance of the scheduled deload. When we're training with this much weekly volume at the intensities being used with this much frequency, it is hugely important the lifter deloads as indicated to stay injury free and to make optimal progress. Please don't neglect this.
This routine is challenging, but you will make dramatic increases in strength and size. I challenge anyone to try this and tell me they weren't impressed by the increases in strength and more importantly, the dramatic improvements in their physique.
For those interested in some more technical information about this routine and it's programming:
I want to mention a few things regarding the main periodization technique used in this routine, DUP.
I mentioned most of this in the OP but thought an additional post with some more info wouldn't hurt.
DUP(daily undulating periodization) was utilized because it is my preferred choice for intermediate and advanced lifters.
The primary reason is because once a lifter is at a certain stage in their development (intermediate/advanced stage), progress is not always going to show up in a linear fashion. Undulating intensity and volume requirements simply means that the volume and intensity requirements are changing (gradually) in a 'wave' like fashion (undulating, not linear). In this case, we are making these changes every day a session is repeated during the week.
You can see it in action by looking at the routine.
Notice how Intensity and Volume requirements are changing everyday a session is repeated during the week.
The changes are gradual but it's not linear, they are wave like. This non-linear approach is ideal for intermediate and advanced guys for the same reason mentioned earlier.
Once again, intermediate/advanced guys won't always see gains in a linear fashion and changing intensity and volume requirements gradually and in a wave like/non-linear fashion addresses this, changing it on the daily takes the concept a step further.
Update: I no longer recommend having weighted dips in the main lift selection. Use Flat Barbell Bench instead.
There are several reasons for this change: first, dips have unfamiliar mobility requirements for a lot of lifters to do safely weighted. This problem becomes compounded when you consider the frequency we train them.
And lastly, I feel having Flat Barbell Bench in place of dips makes for a more balanced routine overall. There are plenty of other 'weighted' lifts in the lift selection as is.
I also want to emphasize the importance of the scheduled deload. When we're training with this much weekly volume at the intensities being used with this much frequency, it is hugely important the lifter deloads as indicated to stay injury free and to make optimal progress. Please don't neglect this.
This post was edited on 7/17/17 at 4:50 pm
Posted on 7/17/17 at 4:44 pm to lsu777
FAQ:
1. In my case i only have 5 days a week that I am able to get to gym due to work and bus schedule over the weekend. Would I be able to chop off that six day and just add a little extra volume on the other two days I do that exercise?
a. Just take 2 days off instead of 1 and pick up from where you left off. Only downside is progress will be slightly slower because one of the sessions only gets trained twice during the week instead of 3x but nothing too bad.
If you were to do this a week will look like
Workout 1 80%, Workout 2 80%, Workout 1 85%, Workout 2 85%, Workout 1 75%, Rest, Rest, Workout 2 75%, Workout 1 80%, Workout 2 80%, Workout 1 85%, Workout 2 85%, Rest, Rest
You get the idea.
I don't see why this wouldn't work but I haven't tried it. Would be interested to see. I can help you set up a program based on how many days you have to train if you like. I always like following routines as designed so if you are interested let me know.
I don't like the idea of increasing the daily single lift volume on some sessions in order to make up for dropping a day. It makes more overall fatigue even if weekly volume is the same.
2. Would changing exercises from week to week hurt?
For example week one you're doing
Incline BB press
Weighted chinup
Romanian deadlift
For the following week could you make it
Flat BB press
Watever a good chinup replacement is
Conventional deadlift
a. I'm not a fan of constantly switching out movements. Everybody changes things just for the sake of it and the magic never happens because just when things were getting good, they switch programs, switch movements, etc etc.
There are 6 main movements being trained during the week, this is pretty limited by bodybuilding standards but a limited lift selection is an integral part of the programming. Most templates for DUP actually don't advocate using that many lifts (only 3) but my lift selection is more graceful. Weighted chins and pulls aren't as fatiguing as conventional deadlifts for example so you can get away with more lifts in the rotation.
It is better to get really good at a limited lift selection then just being average at a large lift selection. The lift selection although limited is ideal for intermediate and advanced guys without being too excessive.
3. I'm all for keeping it simple, the question I think maybe I should have asked is if movements like RDL and front alone will be sufficient for improving my conventional DL and back squat? I know incline press is gtg as far as bringing my bench up, I've always done more incline work than flat as far as benching goes.
a. In order to get better at conventional deads and back squat you will have to perform those movements. The carryover from training exclusively with other movements will not be enough in my experience.
There is something called SAID principle - specific adaption for imposed demand. It does exactly what it says on the tin - every specific thing you do results in a specific adaptation and adaptations are VERY specific.
If you want to get better at something - you need to do it. There will be some carryover from doing other things of course (that's one of the reasons we do variations or certain accessories that address weak points in our main lifts) but never enough to become truly proficient or to make fastest progress at something if you aren't doing it. SAID principle always applies.
You would be amazed at how specific adaptations are and how many things get taken into account that your body 'averages' out when producing an adaptation.
All of these movements are viable but this is a bodybuilding routine foremost and this is kind of a special situation where the lift selection I indicated is actually kind of important to the sustainability of the routine.
This routine strikes a very good balance between performance and aesthetics but the lift selection is unique in that it isn't centered around the big 3. This has been my lift selection ever since I started lifting and I never felt that it was all show and no go, quite the opposite.
4. My issue with the program is there isn't enough work being done. Yes your training more OFTEN. But 3 sets of this and 3 sets of that with no failure is really hard for me to chew.
a. I disagree that there isn't enough work being performed.
Let's break down just one of the workouts, for example
Day 1 is Front Squat 3x8 @ 80%, Weighted Dips 3x8 @ 80%, Weighted Chinup 3x8 @ 80%
That's 24 reps for EACH movement using 80% of 1RM.
72 total reps performed across just 3 lifts with 80% of your 1RM.
I do not feel that that is a low workload, even for single session. 80% of 1RM is not a low intensity either, those sets will be challenging.
Not to mention the accessory and isolation work that is prescribed which adds up to about 150 reps across all those accessory movements for just that one day.
222 repetitions of work performed for just one day in the gym. Not bad imo.
The workload is on the higher side of what is sustainable, and even then I would not neglect the scheduled deload on this program.
The sessions will take quite a bit of time in the gym to complete, they are not short workouts by any means.
5. That's alot of weighted pulling. Everyday a weighted pulling movement.
a. I am a firm believer in keeping weekly volume for movements that address your back at or around 2x that of push movements. Too many guys have imbalances because of poorly planned programs that have absurd amounts of push volume but not enough work addressing back muscles.
I don't just accomplish this by prescribing a bunch of vertical pulls though, this routine also includes accessory and isolation movements to increase back volume, Seated Rows and Reverse Fly's, and maybe even the prone y-raises fall into this category but that is being generous.
Vertical pulls are used to address back width and weighted chinups and pullups are my preferred type of vertical pulls that I believe are ideal for bodybuilding purposes. I prescribe 2 vertical pulls because I feel this ideal and beneficial for intermediate and advanced lifters.
My old programming had me doing Weighted Pullups after Weighted Chinups on Back and Bi day and I was still able to progress. When I switched to this I had them on 2 separate days and my strength on weighted pullups absolutely exploded. You might be pulling everyday, but you will make progress and fast.
1. In my case i only have 5 days a week that I am able to get to gym due to work and bus schedule over the weekend. Would I be able to chop off that six day and just add a little extra volume on the other two days I do that exercise?
a. Just take 2 days off instead of 1 and pick up from where you left off. Only downside is progress will be slightly slower because one of the sessions only gets trained twice during the week instead of 3x but nothing too bad.
If you were to do this a week will look like
Workout 1 80%, Workout 2 80%, Workout 1 85%, Workout 2 85%, Workout 1 75%, Rest, Rest, Workout 2 75%, Workout 1 80%, Workout 2 80%, Workout 1 85%, Workout 2 85%, Rest, Rest
You get the idea.
I don't see why this wouldn't work but I haven't tried it. Would be interested to see. I can help you set up a program based on how many days you have to train if you like. I always like following routines as designed so if you are interested let me know.
I don't like the idea of increasing the daily single lift volume on some sessions in order to make up for dropping a day. It makes more overall fatigue even if weekly volume is the same.
2. Would changing exercises from week to week hurt?
For example week one you're doing
Incline BB press
Weighted chinup
Romanian deadlift
For the following week could you make it
Flat BB press
Watever a good chinup replacement is
Conventional deadlift
a. I'm not a fan of constantly switching out movements. Everybody changes things just for the sake of it and the magic never happens because just when things were getting good, they switch programs, switch movements, etc etc.
There are 6 main movements being trained during the week, this is pretty limited by bodybuilding standards but a limited lift selection is an integral part of the programming. Most templates for DUP actually don't advocate using that many lifts (only 3) but my lift selection is more graceful. Weighted chins and pulls aren't as fatiguing as conventional deadlifts for example so you can get away with more lifts in the rotation.
It is better to get really good at a limited lift selection then just being average at a large lift selection. The lift selection although limited is ideal for intermediate and advanced guys without being too excessive.
3. I'm all for keeping it simple, the question I think maybe I should have asked is if movements like RDL and front alone will be sufficient for improving my conventional DL and back squat? I know incline press is gtg as far as bringing my bench up, I've always done more incline work than flat as far as benching goes.
a. In order to get better at conventional deads and back squat you will have to perform those movements. The carryover from training exclusively with other movements will not be enough in my experience.
There is something called SAID principle - specific adaption for imposed demand. It does exactly what it says on the tin - every specific thing you do results in a specific adaptation and adaptations are VERY specific.
If you want to get better at something - you need to do it. There will be some carryover from doing other things of course (that's one of the reasons we do variations or certain accessories that address weak points in our main lifts) but never enough to become truly proficient or to make fastest progress at something if you aren't doing it. SAID principle always applies.
You would be amazed at how specific adaptations are and how many things get taken into account that your body 'averages' out when producing an adaptation.
All of these movements are viable but this is a bodybuilding routine foremost and this is kind of a special situation where the lift selection I indicated is actually kind of important to the sustainability of the routine.
This routine strikes a very good balance between performance and aesthetics but the lift selection is unique in that it isn't centered around the big 3. This has been my lift selection ever since I started lifting and I never felt that it was all show and no go, quite the opposite.
4. My issue with the program is there isn't enough work being done. Yes your training more OFTEN. But 3 sets of this and 3 sets of that with no failure is really hard for me to chew.
a. I disagree that there isn't enough work being performed.
Let's break down just one of the workouts, for example
Day 1 is Front Squat 3x8 @ 80%, Weighted Dips 3x8 @ 80%, Weighted Chinup 3x8 @ 80%
That's 24 reps for EACH movement using 80% of 1RM.
72 total reps performed across just 3 lifts with 80% of your 1RM.
I do not feel that that is a low workload, even for single session. 80% of 1RM is not a low intensity either, those sets will be challenging.
Not to mention the accessory and isolation work that is prescribed which adds up to about 150 reps across all those accessory movements for just that one day.
222 repetitions of work performed for just one day in the gym. Not bad imo.
The workload is on the higher side of what is sustainable, and even then I would not neglect the scheduled deload on this program.
The sessions will take quite a bit of time in the gym to complete, they are not short workouts by any means.
5. That's alot of weighted pulling. Everyday a weighted pulling movement.
a. I am a firm believer in keeping weekly volume for movements that address your back at or around 2x that of push movements. Too many guys have imbalances because of poorly planned programs that have absurd amounts of push volume but not enough work addressing back muscles.
I don't just accomplish this by prescribing a bunch of vertical pulls though, this routine also includes accessory and isolation movements to increase back volume, Seated Rows and Reverse Fly's, and maybe even the prone y-raises fall into this category but that is being generous.
Vertical pulls are used to address back width and weighted chinups and pullups are my preferred type of vertical pulls that I believe are ideal for bodybuilding purposes. I prescribe 2 vertical pulls because I feel this ideal and beneficial for intermediate and advanced lifters.
My old programming had me doing Weighted Pullups after Weighted Chinups on Back and Bi day and I was still able to progress. When I switched to this I had them on 2 separate days and my strength on weighted pullups absolutely exploded. You might be pulling everyday, but you will make progress and fast.
This post was edited on 7/18/17 at 12:41 pm
Posted on 7/17/17 at 4:50 pm to lsu777
6. I have gone to 2x a week for some lagging parts but have found undeniably it sets me in a deep recovery hole.
a. I incorporate 2 periodization techniques to handle recovery - DUP and scheduled deloads. I carefully programmed the volume requirements to make the program sustainable. If a lifter is going backwards or regressing on this program - they didn't deload.
7. All aside tho this seems much more sports oriented. Designed for performance
a. I consider that statement to be high praise actually . But it is a bodybuilding routine and it is geared primarily towards hypertrophy. But anyone who runs this routine will love the performance benefits - they will see even more if they use higher % of 1rm and undulate between higher intensities.
8. What sort of rest time between sets?
a. Take as long as you feel you need for the intensities being worked. 85% day might have you resting longer then 75% day in between your sets but I don't indicate any specific rest time - take however long you feel you need as long as it's reasonable. I personally just handle rest time instinctively - whenever I feel good for my next set I will perform it.
I don't recommend short rest periods here, except maybe for some of the isolation stuff if the lifter prefers to do them that way (but avoid failure), the intensities and poundage's prescribed will be too high for the main movements to train with short rest periods imo.
9. Can i change incline bench to flat bench?
a. This should work no problem.
10. Is the prone y raise for posture purposes? (Pull shoulders back) reason i ask is i feel rounded
a. Prone y-raises target the lower trapezius which is useful for the purpose of maintaining scapular health and stability. I included a few movements in here for the purposes of shoulder, postural, and scapular health and stability - things that are often neglected but end up causing problems later on. I also suggest doing scap push ups as well.
11. Would you still recommend cardio 3 times a week after workout?
a. You can do that no problem, I don't have any cardio prescribed in the routine but you can certainly do it if you like. 3x a week after a workout should be just fine, I don't see how it would harm progress at all.
12. I was thinking the same thing about recovery but. what do you think about running this program 4 days per week or 3 days like an A & B routine that alternate say M-W-F?
a. There are a couple ways to handle this. I can't give you any assurances of success since I haven't tried it but applying similar methodologies, you could:
Reduce variety: Use a smaller lift selection if you want to only do 3 days a week. Something like Front Squat, RDL, Weighted Pullups, Incline. This will ensure that each lift gets hit 3x a week, whereas doing an A/B setup like I have indicated in the OP with only 3-4 days a week will have much less frequency. You could still do it but progress will be slower.
In theory a 3 day setup could look something like this.
Example:
Monday:
Front Squat 3x8
RDL 3x8
Weighted Pullups 3x8
Incline 3x8
(reduce amount of accessory work performed since that is a shite load of single session work already, maybe just do something like tricep pressdown, dumbbell lateral raise, rows, reverse flies, prone y-raises)
and then just do the same for Wednesday and Friday undulating between the intensity and volume requirements I indicated in the OP.
You will still need to deload though because weekly INOL for each lift will still be very high.
However, the setup I indicated in the OP will be superior for size gains for intermediate/advanced lifters. This is because of a few reasons, one is that you are doing more overall work in the 6 day week setup since there are more lifts in the rotation, MPS will remain spiked for longer since you are training almost everyday with almost every muscle coming into use each day, and variety is a little bit higher.
But the 3 day a week setup would still be considered a hypertrophy routine, but the SINGLE LIFT weekly volume requirements is still setup for intermediate / advanced lifters and I think those guys will see more results from the 6 day a week routine. I actually thought the amount of work prescribed might seem deceiving to readers at first, but you recognized it as being high right away since you're familiar with eastern bloc training methodologies.
This routine is definitely brutal, and the deload is an absolute must. It can be run continuously however, in fact a routine like this I would run for a minimum of around 6 months or so personally (deloading every 3 weeks still as prescribed in the OP). That's when things get really interesting with any program, too many guys don't want to give something that long though which is a shame. If the lifter is deloading at the recommended frequency, they can continue to run the routine and make excellent strength and size gains year round.
You're correct, I kept weekly volume as high as it is because of bodybuilding purposes. The lift selection is excellent for both aesthetics and performance, I feel it strikes a great balance between the two.
At this much volume relative to intensity, after the lifter finishes the second week he is probably going to be looking forward to the 1 week deload and he still has 1 more week of training to go, so it will be mentally and physically challenging. The lifter will see excellent size gains and strength gains and even if fatigue is effecting performance he should bounce past that after the deload week.
I'm confident in the sustainability of this program if the lifter follows it as written. I think many people who train for bb'ing aren't used to having fatigue as a variable so they might feel they aren't recovering but fatigue is necessary to make optimal progress past a certain point (intermediate/advanced stage). You already know this, I'm just taking this post to talk some more about recovery and sustainability.
You can definitely split it up into blocks like that for 2x a day sessions, I don't see why that wouldn't work nicely. More auto-regulation techniques is always going to help with success if applied properly and the lifter is being honest with themselves about what they are capable of that particular training day.
I wouldn't bother re-establishing 1RM's personally after set periods of time, but maybe that is just the bb'ing influence talking lol. Just continue to add poundage's and make progress within the prescribed intensities and rep ranges. Stay within the intensities and rep ranges as you make progress, aside from that I don't see the need to test 1RM unless you are just curious where you are at.
Starting off, give the weights you plug in a little bit of play so they aren't absurdly difficult to hit. When you're comfortably in the routine, for your 10RM you should be able to do 10 reps without excessive grinding or failure, with rep 11 being a grinder or failed rep (don't do the eleventh rep of course). However, when starting you should give yourself a little more room, maybe for a 10RM at first pick a weight where you can do 10 reps without much issue, 11 would be difficult / grindy, but would probably fail at 12. Use 75% of your 1RM as a starting point but adjust if needed. This will give you some nice room when starting out with so it's not too brutal.
The reason I recommend doing this is because some people might not be used to certain intensities or training with certain RM's and since SAID principle always applies, it's possible that if you aren't normally training with higher rep sets and you decide to use your exact 10RM based on your 1RM (75%) you might find it very difficult at first. A little bit of extra cushion at the start will help out big time mentally.
a. I incorporate 2 periodization techniques to handle recovery - DUP and scheduled deloads. I carefully programmed the volume requirements to make the program sustainable. If a lifter is going backwards or regressing on this program - they didn't deload.
7. All aside tho this seems much more sports oriented. Designed for performance
a. I consider that statement to be high praise actually . But it is a bodybuilding routine and it is geared primarily towards hypertrophy. But anyone who runs this routine will love the performance benefits - they will see even more if they use higher % of 1rm and undulate between higher intensities.
8. What sort of rest time between sets?
a. Take as long as you feel you need for the intensities being worked. 85% day might have you resting longer then 75% day in between your sets but I don't indicate any specific rest time - take however long you feel you need as long as it's reasonable. I personally just handle rest time instinctively - whenever I feel good for my next set I will perform it.
I don't recommend short rest periods here, except maybe for some of the isolation stuff if the lifter prefers to do them that way (but avoid failure), the intensities and poundage's prescribed will be too high for the main movements to train with short rest periods imo.
9. Can i change incline bench to flat bench?
a. This should work no problem.
10. Is the prone y raise for posture purposes? (Pull shoulders back) reason i ask is i feel rounded
a. Prone y-raises target the lower trapezius which is useful for the purpose of maintaining scapular health and stability. I included a few movements in here for the purposes of shoulder, postural, and scapular health and stability - things that are often neglected but end up causing problems later on. I also suggest doing scap push ups as well.
11. Would you still recommend cardio 3 times a week after workout?
a. You can do that no problem, I don't have any cardio prescribed in the routine but you can certainly do it if you like. 3x a week after a workout should be just fine, I don't see how it would harm progress at all.
12. I was thinking the same thing about recovery but. what do you think about running this program 4 days per week or 3 days like an A & B routine that alternate say M-W-F?
a. There are a couple ways to handle this. I can't give you any assurances of success since I haven't tried it but applying similar methodologies, you could:
Reduce variety: Use a smaller lift selection if you want to only do 3 days a week. Something like Front Squat, RDL, Weighted Pullups, Incline. This will ensure that each lift gets hit 3x a week, whereas doing an A/B setup like I have indicated in the OP with only 3-4 days a week will have much less frequency. You could still do it but progress will be slower.
In theory a 3 day setup could look something like this.
Example:
Monday:
Front Squat 3x8
RDL 3x8
Weighted Pullups 3x8
Incline 3x8
(reduce amount of accessory work performed since that is a shite load of single session work already, maybe just do something like tricep pressdown, dumbbell lateral raise, rows, reverse flies, prone y-raises)
and then just do the same for Wednesday and Friday undulating between the intensity and volume requirements I indicated in the OP.
You will still need to deload though because weekly INOL for each lift will still be very high.
However, the setup I indicated in the OP will be superior for size gains for intermediate/advanced lifters. This is because of a few reasons, one is that you are doing more overall work in the 6 day week setup since there are more lifts in the rotation, MPS will remain spiked for longer since you are training almost everyday with almost every muscle coming into use each day, and variety is a little bit higher.
But the 3 day a week setup would still be considered a hypertrophy routine, but the SINGLE LIFT weekly volume requirements is still setup for intermediate / advanced lifters and I think those guys will see more results from the 6 day a week routine. I actually thought the amount of work prescribed might seem deceiving to readers at first, but you recognized it as being high right away since you're familiar with eastern bloc training methodologies.
This routine is definitely brutal, and the deload is an absolute must. It can be run continuously however, in fact a routine like this I would run for a minimum of around 6 months or so personally (deloading every 3 weeks still as prescribed in the OP). That's when things get really interesting with any program, too many guys don't want to give something that long though which is a shame. If the lifter is deloading at the recommended frequency, they can continue to run the routine and make excellent strength and size gains year round.
You're correct, I kept weekly volume as high as it is because of bodybuilding purposes. The lift selection is excellent for both aesthetics and performance, I feel it strikes a great balance between the two.
At this much volume relative to intensity, after the lifter finishes the second week he is probably going to be looking forward to the 1 week deload and he still has 1 more week of training to go, so it will be mentally and physically challenging. The lifter will see excellent size gains and strength gains and even if fatigue is effecting performance he should bounce past that after the deload week.
I'm confident in the sustainability of this program if the lifter follows it as written. I think many people who train for bb'ing aren't used to having fatigue as a variable so they might feel they aren't recovering but fatigue is necessary to make optimal progress past a certain point (intermediate/advanced stage). You already know this, I'm just taking this post to talk some more about recovery and sustainability.
You can definitely split it up into blocks like that for 2x a day sessions, I don't see why that wouldn't work nicely. More auto-regulation techniques is always going to help with success if applied properly and the lifter is being honest with themselves about what they are capable of that particular training day.
I wouldn't bother re-establishing 1RM's personally after set periods of time, but maybe that is just the bb'ing influence talking lol. Just continue to add poundage's and make progress within the prescribed intensities and rep ranges. Stay within the intensities and rep ranges as you make progress, aside from that I don't see the need to test 1RM unless you are just curious where you are at.
Starting off, give the weights you plug in a little bit of play so they aren't absurdly difficult to hit. When you're comfortably in the routine, for your 10RM you should be able to do 10 reps without excessive grinding or failure, with rep 11 being a grinder or failed rep (don't do the eleventh rep of course). However, when starting you should give yourself a little more room, maybe for a 10RM at first pick a weight where you can do 10 reps without much issue, 11 would be difficult / grindy, but would probably fail at 12. Use 75% of your 1RM as a starting point but adjust if needed. This will give you some nice room when starting out with so it's not too brutal.
The reason I recommend doing this is because some people might not be used to certain intensities or training with certain RM's and since SAID principle always applies, it's possible that if you aren't normally training with higher rep sets and you decide to use your exact 10RM based on your 1RM (75%) you might find it very difficult at first. A little bit of extra cushion at the start will help out big time mentally.
This post was edited on 7/18/17 at 12:42 pm
Posted on 7/18/17 at 12:48 pm to lsu777
13. Also deadlifts are a no go. Forgot about that one. Hyper extensions maybe?
a. Romanian Deadlifts are actually indicated for this routine instead of conventional deads since I like a combination of both RDL's and Front Squat for addressing the lower body.
From what I've seen RDL's generally don't cause too many problems for lower back but you will have to test this out and see. They are much smoother for me in this regard than weighted hypers.
14. I may change the pullups & chinups to palms up pulldowns & dumbbell rows simply because
1. I don't like weighted anything. It does unnecessary damage to my lower back
2. Pullups I simply don't like at my BW then adding weight. I can control rows alot better for the intended stimulation
a. I'll give some detailed suggestions on this in a short while. I have to head out to see my doc right now but a couple things that might be worth considering at the moment:
You can drop one of the weighted pulls, and just use chinups. I personally like using 2 pulls to address back width but 1 will work without issue. At your bodyweight chinups will be challenging enough to the point where even very small amounts of added weight will make the lift progressive. I would try this approach and see.
I do have seated rows included as an accessory lift which is indicated for 3x a week so you will be doing plenty of rowing.
CGBP instead of Weighted Dips should work as a viable replacement I believe, I would pick one movement in place of weighted dips for the main lift rotation however (either dips, or cgbp etc) instead of alternating since the specificity is an important part of this routines success.
15. Can you change front squat for back squat?
a. It will work, I simply prefer Front Squat for bodybuilding oriented lifters.
I also find it to be the most enjoyable and one of the most challenging movements I perform in the gym, not to mention the performance benefits and of course there is carryover into the olympic lifts which feels nice knowing even if the lifter has no interest in that whatsoever. Using the rack position in training is a lot of fun too.
Back squat should work just fine though.
16. what about dips, is it possible to not do it? for example I have pain in my shoulder as soon as I start doing dips, it really frick me up.
a. Don't do them if you're getting pain. Replace with flat bench (barbell). I personally consider either one to be perfectly viable when it comes to bodybuilding purposes. This change will work no problem and it's one I will probably make moving forward too.
Some folks get quite a bit of pain from dips. They do require a decent amount of shoulder mobility to do weighted properly but the pain can come from other things as well. Most people should be fine, but some guys should just not do them.
17. What about ppl not strong enough to do pullup lol?
Work on them a bit before starting the program, being able to do 12 body weight pull ups with good form should be a good place to be at in order to start doing them weighted with the intensities this routine is working with, it shouldn't take too long to achieve this unless you're carrying a crazy amount of size (250+).
18. Here are some more detailed, albeit very scattered thoughts on lift selection given what you've posted.
a. Important to mention: I didn't study human movement or physiology, listen to your own body with regard to injuries and pain. These are just suggestions, I can't tell you with certainty if they will be pain free.
You can do CGBP instead of weighted dips for Workout A if you prefer, but an even better replacement would be a flat bb bench, just stick with one instead of rotating though. Ideally something you can be progressive in. Incline is still being trained in the main lift rotation 3x a week, so you should be good here.
Chinups....as mentioned earlier, at your size even small increments in weight on this lift will make it challenging. This should be very forgiving on the lower back since it's not very common for someone at 280+ to be doing 3 plate chinups. You can place a dumbbell between your legs instead although I would strongly recommend the dip belt. I suspect you will be fine here for weighted chinups. Just take the belt off between sets when you're doing them for 85% of 1rm since the weight will probably get pretty heavy there.
RDL's as mentioned earlier aren't the same as conventional deads, and they are fairly forgiving on the low back I believe. Test them out and see. They can be difficult to get accustomed to mechanically, a lot of guys have difficulty getting down the movement but you will know early on if they are viable. The video by Rippetoe is excellent.
Weighted pull-ups can be dropped if they are not viable, keep everything else the same for that particular workout. Just add another accessory lift for back width like you had suggested but treat it the same as the other accessory movements being performed and you should be fine.
I hesitate to deviate further from this. My personal philosophy is to always use the lift selection indicated by the author with only some small interchangeable changes if absolutely necessary. This isn't based out of some dogmatic belief that my approach is best, it's just that past a certain point I can't give any assurances of success. I don't want to waste someones time in the gym either so I hesitate to make certain changes since I can't say for certain if they will work just as good.
19. As of right now I substituted in flat bench press for weighted dips and palms up pulldowns for weighted chinup ups. I'll stay this course for at least a month to reevaluate the lift selection usefulness.
a. Sounds like it's going well so far, glad to hear you're giving it a try.
Flat bench is a great replacement for dips and probably one I'm going to make moving forward.
Yeah, the routine is my design but a lot of the methodologies and tools used have been around forever (dual factor approach, scheduled deloads, prilepins chart etc). DUP is kind of newer compared to the other techniques used but it's extremely effective and was purposefully chosen because I feel it is not only ideal for intermediate/advanced guys but also for hypertrophy/bodybuilding oriented lifters as well.
This routine is pretty much a reflection of what my current preferences are for bb'ing / hypertrophy oriented lifters.
a. Romanian Deadlifts are actually indicated for this routine instead of conventional deads since I like a combination of both RDL's and Front Squat for addressing the lower body.
From what I've seen RDL's generally don't cause too many problems for lower back but you will have to test this out and see. They are much smoother for me in this regard than weighted hypers.
14. I may change the pullups & chinups to palms up pulldowns & dumbbell rows simply because
1. I don't like weighted anything. It does unnecessary damage to my lower back
2. Pullups I simply don't like at my BW then adding weight. I can control rows alot better for the intended stimulation
a. I'll give some detailed suggestions on this in a short while. I have to head out to see my doc right now but a couple things that might be worth considering at the moment:
You can drop one of the weighted pulls, and just use chinups. I personally like using 2 pulls to address back width but 1 will work without issue. At your bodyweight chinups will be challenging enough to the point where even very small amounts of added weight will make the lift progressive. I would try this approach and see.
I do have seated rows included as an accessory lift which is indicated for 3x a week so you will be doing plenty of rowing.
CGBP instead of Weighted Dips should work as a viable replacement I believe, I would pick one movement in place of weighted dips for the main lift rotation however (either dips, or cgbp etc) instead of alternating since the specificity is an important part of this routines success.
15. Can you change front squat for back squat?
a. It will work, I simply prefer Front Squat for bodybuilding oriented lifters.
I also find it to be the most enjoyable and one of the most challenging movements I perform in the gym, not to mention the performance benefits and of course there is carryover into the olympic lifts which feels nice knowing even if the lifter has no interest in that whatsoever. Using the rack position in training is a lot of fun too.
Back squat should work just fine though.
16. what about dips, is it possible to not do it? for example I have pain in my shoulder as soon as I start doing dips, it really frick me up.
a. Don't do them if you're getting pain. Replace with flat bench (barbell). I personally consider either one to be perfectly viable when it comes to bodybuilding purposes. This change will work no problem and it's one I will probably make moving forward too.
Some folks get quite a bit of pain from dips. They do require a decent amount of shoulder mobility to do weighted properly but the pain can come from other things as well. Most people should be fine, but some guys should just not do them.
17. What about ppl not strong enough to do pullup lol?
Work on them a bit before starting the program, being able to do 12 body weight pull ups with good form should be a good place to be at in order to start doing them weighted with the intensities this routine is working with, it shouldn't take too long to achieve this unless you're carrying a crazy amount of size (250+).
18. Here are some more detailed, albeit very scattered thoughts on lift selection given what you've posted.
a. Important to mention: I didn't study human movement or physiology, listen to your own body with regard to injuries and pain. These are just suggestions, I can't tell you with certainty if they will be pain free.
You can do CGBP instead of weighted dips for Workout A if you prefer, but an even better replacement would be a flat bb bench, just stick with one instead of rotating though. Ideally something you can be progressive in. Incline is still being trained in the main lift rotation 3x a week, so you should be good here.
Chinups....as mentioned earlier, at your size even small increments in weight on this lift will make it challenging. This should be very forgiving on the lower back since it's not very common for someone at 280+ to be doing 3 plate chinups. You can place a dumbbell between your legs instead although I would strongly recommend the dip belt. I suspect you will be fine here for weighted chinups. Just take the belt off between sets when you're doing them for 85% of 1rm since the weight will probably get pretty heavy there.
RDL's as mentioned earlier aren't the same as conventional deads, and they are fairly forgiving on the low back I believe. Test them out and see. They can be difficult to get accustomed to mechanically, a lot of guys have difficulty getting down the movement but you will know early on if they are viable. The video by Rippetoe is excellent.
Weighted pull-ups can be dropped if they are not viable, keep everything else the same for that particular workout. Just add another accessory lift for back width like you had suggested but treat it the same as the other accessory movements being performed and you should be fine.
I hesitate to deviate further from this. My personal philosophy is to always use the lift selection indicated by the author with only some small interchangeable changes if absolutely necessary. This isn't based out of some dogmatic belief that my approach is best, it's just that past a certain point I can't give any assurances of success. I don't want to waste someones time in the gym either so I hesitate to make certain changes since I can't say for certain if they will work just as good.
19. As of right now I substituted in flat bench press for weighted dips and palms up pulldowns for weighted chinup ups. I'll stay this course for at least a month to reevaluate the lift selection usefulness.
a. Sounds like it's going well so far, glad to hear you're giving it a try.
Flat bench is a great replacement for dips and probably one I'm going to make moving forward.
Yeah, the routine is my design but a lot of the methodologies and tools used have been around forever (dual factor approach, scheduled deloads, prilepins chart etc). DUP is kind of newer compared to the other techniques used but it's extremely effective and was purposefully chosen because I feel it is not only ideal for intermediate/advanced guys but also for hypertrophy/bodybuilding oriented lifters as well.
This routine is pretty much a reflection of what my current preferences are for bb'ing / hypertrophy oriented lifters.
Posted on 7/18/17 at 12:52 pm to lsu777
20. I'm trying my very hardest to avoid failure. Which is the point of this program. I am sure this couldn't be done regularly if I was. I am NOT on cycle so I don't have my full deck on hand either but I expect and demand big changes.
a. You might feel like your power isn't there right now but it really doesn't matter too much because at the frequency the main lifts are being trained you will be performing at full capacity in very short order. Don't stress this one, let the frequency work it's magic.
You might be tempted to hit failure now, but trust me, once it picks up you are going to be challenged enough in every way imaginable, physically and mentally. Just wait for the fatigue to set in. I figure most guys will be REALLY looking forward to the 1 week deload after they completed 2 weeks of training. They still have another full week of training to go after that. If any stagnation (fatigue masking fitness) occurs towards the end you will bounce back and ideally surpass that post deload.
You will still be challenged even without failure on this routine: it will be possible to add weight or reps on EVERY single movement at EVERY single intensity ( 3 pr's (either weight or a rep) in a single session - 6 times a week.....) Front squat + RDL's are very forgiving on the low back. Not only is this combination amazing for bb'ing but it's also great for performance. I'd focus on perfecting the RDL mechanically if you haven't already, adding weight will be very easy past that point and you will see excellent growth in the posterior chain from doing them.
21. what's your opinion on substituting OHP for the Incline Barbell Press?
a. For bodybuilding purposes I generally don't think it's necessary to include direct shoulder pressing work like OHP in the main lift selection unless the lifter is in the advanced stages. If you want to change lift selection in order to make it more performance oriented you could certainly make the switch, but for bodybuilding purposes, I don't feel it's necessary or ideal.
I personally believe that incline is actually a very good movement for performance in sports as well, even though OHP is more commonly indicated in routines for sports performance. It's still a damn good lift in this regard. Incline might not have as much carryover onto the field or into other strength activities or sports as the OHP, but still pretty damn good.
22. So the only REAL issue I'm having with this program is there isn't enough "pump" work. I try my best on the ancillary work but it's not enough real volume to hit that point in the working sets where I need to be. I really don't know how to fix that besides adding more sets to the ancillary stuff.
a. I would say this is accurate.
I figure I should address the pump work subject and related because it's an important subject for bodybuilding routines. The following is somewhat unrelated but still somewhat related:
The pumps you get from the daily sessions will be decent / moderate, and depending on how accessory work is performed, in some cases can actually be really good. But you are correct, the pump work just isn't as intense as some might be used to.
It's just inherent to how the routine is setup, we're training these different movements in a single day and multiple muscle groups are being worked, but the guy who spends a whole session training his biceps is going to get much more intense pumps and sense of satisfaction in some regards. There is no disputing this, so I agree with you here.
However, the lifter who runs this routine will see more growth than the guy chasing the pump or flushing a single muscle with an assload of movements and single session volume, just because of how high the frequency is for muscle groups being worked (muscle protein synthesis will stay spiked very high throughout the whole week) and of course many other reasons (high weekly volume etc).
Anecdotally, something I have observed is that guys who spend a lot of time and volume on a single muscle group, probably aren't doing as much workload as we are on this program. On the daily, sure, but there sets probably aren't as intense as the sets we're doing on compounds on this routine, not to mention the frequency. The overall weekly volume / workload on this routine is probably a LOT higher than what most guys are doing or used to. It doesn't seem that way at times because the single sessions are actually manageable and the routine is sustainable, but in the context of an entire week, this workload is probably way higher.
The blood flow > growth theory has more or less been 'discredited' long ago by Soviet research (I have a paper on this one actually) in the sense that it is not as impactful as once thought. I'm not going to dismiss the pump as being a contributor to growth, but I think what we have on this routine is superior to chasing the pump, even for growth.
It was difficult to get adjusted to this at first but I prefer it now, the reason being because I like having a pump everywhere when I'm working out or finished working out instead of just one muscle group pumped and having everything else go flat. The guy who has a 'leg day' is going to get a much better lower body pump, but everything else is going to go flat that day. We don't have this problem, and I'm starting to prefer this to having one muscle crazy pumped and everything else flat.
If I figure out a way to make the accessory work more satisfying or to supply better pumps from it then I will post it, but a lot of it really just has to do with the variety of muscles being worked. Unavoidable, but still great for growth. I'm hoping the lifters running this program won't be bothered by this one over time once they see the excellent results they are getting.
a. You might feel like your power isn't there right now but it really doesn't matter too much because at the frequency the main lifts are being trained you will be performing at full capacity in very short order. Don't stress this one, let the frequency work it's magic.
You might be tempted to hit failure now, but trust me, once it picks up you are going to be challenged enough in every way imaginable, physically and mentally. Just wait for the fatigue to set in. I figure most guys will be REALLY looking forward to the 1 week deload after they completed 2 weeks of training. They still have another full week of training to go after that. If any stagnation (fatigue masking fitness) occurs towards the end you will bounce back and ideally surpass that post deload.
You will still be challenged even without failure on this routine: it will be possible to add weight or reps on EVERY single movement at EVERY single intensity ( 3 pr's (either weight or a rep) in a single session - 6 times a week.....) Front squat + RDL's are very forgiving on the low back. Not only is this combination amazing for bb'ing but it's also great for performance. I'd focus on perfecting the RDL mechanically if you haven't already, adding weight will be very easy past that point and you will see excellent growth in the posterior chain from doing them.
21. what's your opinion on substituting OHP for the Incline Barbell Press?
a. For bodybuilding purposes I generally don't think it's necessary to include direct shoulder pressing work like OHP in the main lift selection unless the lifter is in the advanced stages. If you want to change lift selection in order to make it more performance oriented you could certainly make the switch, but for bodybuilding purposes, I don't feel it's necessary or ideal.
I personally believe that incline is actually a very good movement for performance in sports as well, even though OHP is more commonly indicated in routines for sports performance. It's still a damn good lift in this regard. Incline might not have as much carryover onto the field or into other strength activities or sports as the OHP, but still pretty damn good.
22. So the only REAL issue I'm having with this program is there isn't enough "pump" work. I try my best on the ancillary work but it's not enough real volume to hit that point in the working sets where I need to be. I really don't know how to fix that besides adding more sets to the ancillary stuff.
a. I would say this is accurate.
I figure I should address the pump work subject and related because it's an important subject for bodybuilding routines. The following is somewhat unrelated but still somewhat related:
The pumps you get from the daily sessions will be decent / moderate, and depending on how accessory work is performed, in some cases can actually be really good. But you are correct, the pump work just isn't as intense as some might be used to.
It's just inherent to how the routine is setup, we're training these different movements in a single day and multiple muscle groups are being worked, but the guy who spends a whole session training his biceps is going to get much more intense pumps and sense of satisfaction in some regards. There is no disputing this, so I agree with you here.
However, the lifter who runs this routine will see more growth than the guy chasing the pump or flushing a single muscle with an assload of movements and single session volume, just because of how high the frequency is for muscle groups being worked (muscle protein synthesis will stay spiked very high throughout the whole week) and of course many other reasons (high weekly volume etc).
Anecdotally, something I have observed is that guys who spend a lot of time and volume on a single muscle group, probably aren't doing as much workload as we are on this program. On the daily, sure, but there sets probably aren't as intense as the sets we're doing on compounds on this routine, not to mention the frequency. The overall weekly volume / workload on this routine is probably a LOT higher than what most guys are doing or used to. It doesn't seem that way at times because the single sessions are actually manageable and the routine is sustainable, but in the context of an entire week, this workload is probably way higher.
The blood flow > growth theory has more or less been 'discredited' long ago by Soviet research (I have a paper on this one actually) in the sense that it is not as impactful as once thought. I'm not going to dismiss the pump as being a contributor to growth, but I think what we have on this routine is superior to chasing the pump, even for growth.
It was difficult to get adjusted to this at first but I prefer it now, the reason being because I like having a pump everywhere when I'm working out or finished working out instead of just one muscle group pumped and having everything else go flat. The guy who has a 'leg day' is going to get a much better lower body pump, but everything else is going to go flat that day. We don't have this problem, and I'm starting to prefer this to having one muscle crazy pumped and everything else flat.
If I figure out a way to make the accessory work more satisfying or to supply better pumps from it then I will post it, but a lot of it really just has to do with the variety of muscles being worked. Unavoidable, but still great for growth. I'm hoping the lifters running this program won't be bothered by this one over time once they see the excellent results they are getting.
Posted on 7/18/17 at 12:53 pm to lsu777
23. Sounds like a long time to be training 6x week. For my recovery ability 3-4 times per week is max.
a. t's a high overall workload for sure, but the daily sessions are actually surprisingly manageable despite how long they can run, and there are several measures in place to make the routine sustainable.
As mentioned earlier, fatigue is included as variable in the programming. We take a dual factor approach to the recovery problem. This application isn't without precedent in a bodybuilding routine though, there have been many dual factor hypertrophy routines over the years and I believe it to be ideal for bodybuilding oriented lifters in the intermediate and advanced stages.
The weekly volume is on the higher end of what is sustainable so a deload is indicated, but the loading was designed using a prilepins chart, so the volume requirements weren't prescribed haphazardly, it was carefully designed / calculated.
It's challenging, but sustainable.
24. With progression u say add reps or weight each week. Im thinking if i try to add one rep each week for 3 weeks then up the weight and lower reps to original number, does this sound ok?
a. I would advise against this - adding reps on a specific intensity and lift instead of adding weight for 3 weeks will change the prescribed rep ranges too much. If you were able to get an additional rep over what was prescribed then next time you do that lift at that intensity increase the weight instead.
Example: weighted chin-up 3x8 @ 80%. Lets say you were able to get an additional rep here in the first set. Next time you do that lift at that intensity then use a heavier weight.
The progression model is kind of loose - either add weight when you get an additional rep over what was prescribed or when the weight feels to easy for the prescribed rep ranges. (You want to make sure you are meeting your total tonnage goals and not falling short on reps though before adding any more weight.)
I personally go by when the weight feels too easy at that intensity - if I do a certain movement and even though I didn't get an additional rep - I can usually tell If I will be good for a weight increase the next session. This is a more instinctive approach and will work better for some then others - I use it and I almost never fall short of the total tonnage requirements, but for others they will be better off waiting until they can do an extra rep before adding weight.
That's why I give the option of doing either one for progression.
25. Also im not sure if im reading this wrong but do i see no bicep isolation movements?
a. Lying cable curls is the bicep isolation movement I list here, performed on day 1 after tricep press downs. You can replace it with another bicep isolation movement if there is one you would prefer to do instead. Yeah it's a pretty obscure bicep movement but it's probably my favorite one. Works great - I use a straight bar attachment on the seated cable row machine to perform them. I personally do tricep pressdowns and lying cable curls everyday instead of eod as I outlined unless I'm short on time. It doesn't make a huge difference but it's not really detrimental either.
26. Every few weeks do u think i could switch from barbell to db with the chest pressing?
a. The only concern I have with this is that your barbell pressing progress will stagnate or maybe even regress depending on how long you have replaced them for dumbbell work for. You might see some benefits doing this in the short term as is almost always the case with changing lift selection - but in the long term I think you would see more progress if you didn't rotate. It's certainly up to you - but if you want my opinion on which will yield better results in the long term, then my suggestion would be to keep lift selection steady.
27. But i feel like your not doing very much for each body part.
a. Believe me, it's a lot of work. Most people who think they are doing more work than what is required from this routine aren't doing as much as they think, and I mean sets with real intensity, not warm-ups and all that ezy mode stuff.
In the context of a week, for just the main lifts alone (not including accessory work) this is the amount of work being performed relative to intensity:
(TOTAL) Weekly Volume for Each Lift:
Front Squat: 69 total reps with intensity ranging from 80%, 85%, 75%
Romanian Deadlift: 69 total reps with intensity ranging from 80%, 85%, 75%
Flat Barbell Bench: 69 total reps with intensity ranging from 80%, 85%, 75%
Incline Barbell Bench: 69 total reps with intensity ranging from 80%, 85%, 75%
Weighted Chinup: 69 total reps with intensity ranging from 80%, 85%, 75%
Weighted Pullup: 69 total reps with intensity ranging from 80%, 85%, 75%
That's an arse load of work.
a. t's a high overall workload for sure, but the daily sessions are actually surprisingly manageable despite how long they can run, and there are several measures in place to make the routine sustainable.
As mentioned earlier, fatigue is included as variable in the programming. We take a dual factor approach to the recovery problem. This application isn't without precedent in a bodybuilding routine though, there have been many dual factor hypertrophy routines over the years and I believe it to be ideal for bodybuilding oriented lifters in the intermediate and advanced stages.
The weekly volume is on the higher end of what is sustainable so a deload is indicated, but the loading was designed using a prilepins chart, so the volume requirements weren't prescribed haphazardly, it was carefully designed / calculated.
It's challenging, but sustainable.
24. With progression u say add reps or weight each week. Im thinking if i try to add one rep each week for 3 weeks then up the weight and lower reps to original number, does this sound ok?
a. I would advise against this - adding reps on a specific intensity and lift instead of adding weight for 3 weeks will change the prescribed rep ranges too much. If you were able to get an additional rep over what was prescribed then next time you do that lift at that intensity increase the weight instead.
Example: weighted chin-up 3x8 @ 80%. Lets say you were able to get an additional rep here in the first set. Next time you do that lift at that intensity then use a heavier weight.
The progression model is kind of loose - either add weight when you get an additional rep over what was prescribed or when the weight feels to easy for the prescribed rep ranges. (You want to make sure you are meeting your total tonnage goals and not falling short on reps though before adding any more weight.)
I personally go by when the weight feels too easy at that intensity - if I do a certain movement and even though I didn't get an additional rep - I can usually tell If I will be good for a weight increase the next session. This is a more instinctive approach and will work better for some then others - I use it and I almost never fall short of the total tonnage requirements, but for others they will be better off waiting until they can do an extra rep before adding weight.
That's why I give the option of doing either one for progression.
25. Also im not sure if im reading this wrong but do i see no bicep isolation movements?
a. Lying cable curls is the bicep isolation movement I list here, performed on day 1 after tricep press downs. You can replace it with another bicep isolation movement if there is one you would prefer to do instead. Yeah it's a pretty obscure bicep movement but it's probably my favorite one. Works great - I use a straight bar attachment on the seated cable row machine to perform them. I personally do tricep pressdowns and lying cable curls everyday instead of eod as I outlined unless I'm short on time. It doesn't make a huge difference but it's not really detrimental either.
26. Every few weeks do u think i could switch from barbell to db with the chest pressing?
a. The only concern I have with this is that your barbell pressing progress will stagnate or maybe even regress depending on how long you have replaced them for dumbbell work for. You might see some benefits doing this in the short term as is almost always the case with changing lift selection - but in the long term I think you would see more progress if you didn't rotate. It's certainly up to you - but if you want my opinion on which will yield better results in the long term, then my suggestion would be to keep lift selection steady.
27. But i feel like your not doing very much for each body part.
a. Believe me, it's a lot of work. Most people who think they are doing more work than what is required from this routine aren't doing as much as they think, and I mean sets with real intensity, not warm-ups and all that ezy mode stuff.
In the context of a week, for just the main lifts alone (not including accessory work) this is the amount of work being performed relative to intensity:
(TOTAL) Weekly Volume for Each Lift:
Front Squat: 69 total reps with intensity ranging from 80%, 85%, 75%
Romanian Deadlift: 69 total reps with intensity ranging from 80%, 85%, 75%
Flat Barbell Bench: 69 total reps with intensity ranging from 80%, 85%, 75%
Incline Barbell Bench: 69 total reps with intensity ranging from 80%, 85%, 75%
Weighted Chinup: 69 total reps with intensity ranging from 80%, 85%, 75%
Weighted Pullup: 69 total reps with intensity ranging from 80%, 85%, 75%
That's an arse load of work.
Posted on 7/18/17 at 12:56 pm to lsu777
28. is it possible to plan this routine for 4 days/week?
a. You can simply do days 1 , 2 , 3 ,4 in a single week, and then the next week continue with day 5, 6, 1, 2 etc.
Weekly volume will be lower and you have more rest days so you can go longer without deloading.
29. Quick question regarding tricep pushdowns, could i switch them for incline skull crushers? Only because i feel that exercise really gets me my tri's pumping, i will only change if ur happy for me to.
a. Yes, that's fine. You can do all kinds of movements depending on where you need more development. Incline skull crushers are fine, so are EZ bar CGBP if you know how to keep tension on the tri's the whole time. If regular extensions aren't doing it then try adding a flex at the bottom, hard for 1-2 seconds.
30. As a natural if the muscle is still in protein synthesis/recovering, I'm not preventing growth right?
a. You won't be inhibiting growth. Quite the opposite, MPS is going to stay very elevated throughout the training cycle instead of returning to baseline levels (which is what happens the longer you go without providing stimulus for a muscle). You push like this for 3-4 weeks (I currently advocate 3 weeks of training instead of the 4 I used to suggest when it came to deload frequency) and then take a week off to allow fatigue to drop and to give your body a much needed rest.
31. And do you usually notice more substantial growth in the deload week?
a. Most of the growth from the deload will come (indirectly) from the fatigue dissipation from when the deload is over, allowing you to lift more poundages than you were able to prior to the deload. It will certainly provide growth in an indirect way, and the mental benefits can't be stated enough.
It takes far more discipline to take time off for the benefit of a lifters progress than to continue pushing the entire time.
32. Some questions. today I have workout A (front squats, etc...) and I also do crossfit 5x/wk and our Wod today was 21, 15, 9 thrusters and 100, 50, 25 DU'S. Can I skip the front squats today or just drop down from 85%. Doubt I can handle that today as my quads are blasted from burpee box jumps yesterday as well.
a. You will need to implement some form of auto-regulation on your weight training to allow you to train for both activities (cf and bb'ing) at the same time. Implementing auto-regulation will be a necessity for you because intense weight training like this that uses strict percentages done alongside CF workouts will be an absurd level of brutality for a human to endure.
I can help you implement something like this if you want, I would think maybe we can switch periodization techniques for you from DUP to something that has auto-regulation built in like flexible NLP. Much easier than trying to switch things up with the DUP template imo.
I want to use the same layout for workouts but instead of DUP use the same or similar intensities and volume requirements but periodize it with flexible non-linear periodization.
You would simply decide what intensity you want to use based on what you feel you are capable of that particular day. If you have a CF WOD that requires you to do a lot of cleans or complexes that tire your legs and you have to front squat that day, you can decide, okay I'm going to do a 3x10 day today instead of 85%.
The only concern is that even the 3x10 day is hard as frick despite being a lighter weight because all those sets are basically RPE-9, 1 rep short of failure / heavy grindage. I'm thinking of adding a couple more intensities for you to choose from that are similar to what I have here that are probably closer to RPE-8 so you have more options for the days you feel you will be really bogged down with CF.
I'll try and come up with something. I should state it's possible to make something that sounds good on paper with everything done properly but still turn out to be sub-par in practice. So what I come up for you based on trying to be compatible with your other athletic endeavors will be experimental.
a. You can simply do days 1 , 2 , 3 ,4 in a single week, and then the next week continue with day 5, 6, 1, 2 etc.
Weekly volume will be lower and you have more rest days so you can go longer without deloading.
29. Quick question regarding tricep pushdowns, could i switch them for incline skull crushers? Only because i feel that exercise really gets me my tri's pumping, i will only change if ur happy for me to.
a. Yes, that's fine. You can do all kinds of movements depending on where you need more development. Incline skull crushers are fine, so are EZ bar CGBP if you know how to keep tension on the tri's the whole time. If regular extensions aren't doing it then try adding a flex at the bottom, hard for 1-2 seconds.
30. As a natural if the muscle is still in protein synthesis/recovering, I'm not preventing growth right?
a. You won't be inhibiting growth. Quite the opposite, MPS is going to stay very elevated throughout the training cycle instead of returning to baseline levels (which is what happens the longer you go without providing stimulus for a muscle). You push like this for 3-4 weeks (I currently advocate 3 weeks of training instead of the 4 I used to suggest when it came to deload frequency) and then take a week off to allow fatigue to drop and to give your body a much needed rest.
31. And do you usually notice more substantial growth in the deload week?
a. Most of the growth from the deload will come (indirectly) from the fatigue dissipation from when the deload is over, allowing you to lift more poundages than you were able to prior to the deload. It will certainly provide growth in an indirect way, and the mental benefits can't be stated enough.
It takes far more discipline to take time off for the benefit of a lifters progress than to continue pushing the entire time.
32. Some questions. today I have workout A (front squats, etc...) and I also do crossfit 5x/wk and our Wod today was 21, 15, 9 thrusters and 100, 50, 25 DU'S. Can I skip the front squats today or just drop down from 85%. Doubt I can handle that today as my quads are blasted from burpee box jumps yesterday as well.
a. You will need to implement some form of auto-regulation on your weight training to allow you to train for both activities (cf and bb'ing) at the same time. Implementing auto-regulation will be a necessity for you because intense weight training like this that uses strict percentages done alongside CF workouts will be an absurd level of brutality for a human to endure.
I can help you implement something like this if you want, I would think maybe we can switch periodization techniques for you from DUP to something that has auto-regulation built in like flexible NLP. Much easier than trying to switch things up with the DUP template imo.
I want to use the same layout for workouts but instead of DUP use the same or similar intensities and volume requirements but periodize it with flexible non-linear periodization.
You would simply decide what intensity you want to use based on what you feel you are capable of that particular day. If you have a CF WOD that requires you to do a lot of cleans or complexes that tire your legs and you have to front squat that day, you can decide, okay I'm going to do a 3x10 day today instead of 85%.
The only concern is that even the 3x10 day is hard as frick despite being a lighter weight because all those sets are basically RPE-9, 1 rep short of failure / heavy grindage. I'm thinking of adding a couple more intensities for you to choose from that are similar to what I have here that are probably closer to RPE-8 so you have more options for the days you feel you will be really bogged down with CF.
I'll try and come up with something. I should state it's possible to make something that sounds good on paper with everything done properly but still turn out to be sub-par in practice. So what I come up for you based on trying to be compatible with your other athletic endeavors will be experimental.
Posted on 7/18/17 at 12:59 pm to lsu777
Tidbits of Wisdom on the Program
• Day 3 and 4's intensity and volume goals are always really hard for me, 3x5 @ 85% might not seem like a lot of daily lift volume for a movement, but it's surprising difficult and the workload is very high.
That's the nice thing about high frequency, running this routine following a brief break is probably the best thing someone could do, they will pretty much fill up again in such a short amount of time due to the frequency (almost every muscle is being worked every day).
It might be too early to gauge this, but how are you liking the changing of intensity/volume every time a session is repeated during the week? That's the best part of this program, the wave like changes in intensity / volume are really good at progressing for advanced guys.
• Day 3 and 4 are both 3x5 @ 85% days, 5 and 6 are 3x10 @ 75%. 5 and 6 are very hard too, that's a lot of volume and those sets will all be challenging. Enjoy
And the fact that you are looking forward to each session is pretty much going to guarantee success here.
• From a technical point of view, the rack position is probably more stable than cross armed. The problem comes down to the fact that the rack position has some pretty unfamiliar mobility requirements for a lot of lifters.
It's something that has to be practiced and honestly the lifter will probably have to do mobility work / stretches before he can fully implement the rack position in his working sets.
There are advantages - as mentioned earlier, from a technical point of view, it is more stable. Other things I have noticed is that my upper back stays much tighter and more upright with the rack position, and I get additional torque from my shoulders on the concentric which makes the whole movement more explosive. Core is very tight during the whole movement too.
For our purposes though the cross-armed grip is more than viable. There are even some PL'ers who have hit some ridiculous front squat numbers in training using a cross armed grip (look at Derek Kendall 800lb front squat for example), so it can absolutely be used for heavy poundages in a way that is stable.
I really like the rack position though - it feels much tighter and much more explosive overall. Hard to describe but it's a lot of fun to use it in training.
Give it a try with just the bar or with 1 plate but be cautious at first - just do this to see what is limiting you mobility wise, practice it and do mobility work as needed but continue to do your normal sets cross armed until you feel safe transitioning to a rack position. I sure as frick didn't have the mobility to do it at first but it did not take long at all to be able to do it comfortably in training and athletic skills and positions don't come easy for me at all (I think a month or so after my first attempt I was able to use it decently for my working sets).
The key areas for me when it comes to rack position mobility was [1] wrist flexibility (this came really fast) [2] tricep tightness [3] lat tightness. I don't foam roll or anything so 2 and 3 were given. My rack position took a very small hit since my right shoulder ROM has been slightly reduced a bit due to surgery but its getting better again and is perfectly functional in training. It's a great skill to have - it's an athletic position after all.
Cross-armed is more than suitable for growth of muscle.I personally use the rack position but for our purposes - it won't make a difference. I figured it would come up at one point or another though so I outlined some comparisons between the two grips in my earlier post.
In a nutshell I guess my opinion on it would be: if the lifter can attain the mobility for the rack position fairly easily or within short order, then they should probably give it an attempt to practice / learn it. If it's a long ways off - probably don't bother unless it's something they really want. It won't have an impact on hypertrophy or aesthetics though.
• Day 3 and 4's intensity and volume goals are always really hard for me, 3x5 @ 85% might not seem like a lot of daily lift volume for a movement, but it's surprising difficult and the workload is very high.
That's the nice thing about high frequency, running this routine following a brief break is probably the best thing someone could do, they will pretty much fill up again in such a short amount of time due to the frequency (almost every muscle is being worked every day).
It might be too early to gauge this, but how are you liking the changing of intensity/volume every time a session is repeated during the week? That's the best part of this program, the wave like changes in intensity / volume are really good at progressing for advanced guys.
• Day 3 and 4 are both 3x5 @ 85% days, 5 and 6 are 3x10 @ 75%. 5 and 6 are very hard too, that's a lot of volume and those sets will all be challenging. Enjoy
And the fact that you are looking forward to each session is pretty much going to guarantee success here.
• From a technical point of view, the rack position is probably more stable than cross armed. The problem comes down to the fact that the rack position has some pretty unfamiliar mobility requirements for a lot of lifters.
It's something that has to be practiced and honestly the lifter will probably have to do mobility work / stretches before he can fully implement the rack position in his working sets.
There are advantages - as mentioned earlier, from a technical point of view, it is more stable. Other things I have noticed is that my upper back stays much tighter and more upright with the rack position, and I get additional torque from my shoulders on the concentric which makes the whole movement more explosive. Core is very tight during the whole movement too.
For our purposes though the cross-armed grip is more than viable. There are even some PL'ers who have hit some ridiculous front squat numbers in training using a cross armed grip (look at Derek Kendall 800lb front squat for example), so it can absolutely be used for heavy poundages in a way that is stable.
I really like the rack position though - it feels much tighter and much more explosive overall. Hard to describe but it's a lot of fun to use it in training.
Give it a try with just the bar or with 1 plate but be cautious at first - just do this to see what is limiting you mobility wise, practice it and do mobility work as needed but continue to do your normal sets cross armed until you feel safe transitioning to a rack position. I sure as frick didn't have the mobility to do it at first but it did not take long at all to be able to do it comfortably in training and athletic skills and positions don't come easy for me at all (I think a month or so after my first attempt I was able to use it decently for my working sets).
The key areas for me when it comes to rack position mobility was [1] wrist flexibility (this came really fast) [2] tricep tightness [3] lat tightness. I don't foam roll or anything so 2 and 3 were given. My rack position took a very small hit since my right shoulder ROM has been slightly reduced a bit due to surgery but its getting better again and is perfectly functional in training. It's a great skill to have - it's an athletic position after all.
Cross-armed is more than suitable for growth of muscle.I personally use the rack position but for our purposes - it won't make a difference. I figured it would come up at one point or another though so I outlined some comparisons between the two grips in my earlier post.
In a nutshell I guess my opinion on it would be: if the lifter can attain the mobility for the rack position fairly easily or within short order, then they should probably give it an attempt to practice / learn it. If it's a long ways off - probably don't bother unless it's something they really want. It won't have an impact on hypertrophy or aesthetics though.
Posted on 7/18/17 at 1:00 pm to lsu777
If anyone is interested in calf work on this routine, I recommend the following:
Standing Calf Raises 5 sets for 15 reps
Seated Calf Raises 5 sets for 20-25 reps
Performed ED or EOD.
I do this ED at the end of the workout or about half way through my accessory work (I finish the other half once calf work is done). I wouldn't go anymore infrequently than EOD.
I have some theories on calf work and why it's such a difficult muscle to grow, but for now my recommendation is mostly just using higher rep ranges while still being progressive with the weight. I don't think that intensity is very important for this muscle.
Regarding calf work (again):
Even though I stated that I don't believe intensity is very important for calf work, the lifter can use higher intensities or even go close to failure on calf work without much detriment to the rest of their training, but I don't believe there will be any additional benefits. That is why I don't recommend doing either of those things, but it won't be detrimental.
I also think the indicated rep ranges I posted for calf work are ideal.
Frequency will probably be the most important factor though, and doing it consistently / regularly enough.
[This is why I do calf work right in the middle of my accessory work some times instead of leaving it for the end. More consistent with this setup.]
My original suspicion was that calves are primarily slow twitch but I don't believe this is entirely the case or the sole explanation. There are other factors for why calves are a bitch. But the work I indicated in the earlier post is what I believe to be ideal and what has worked best for me in the past and currently as well.
• It's a good thing you brought up the deloading subject. This is something I feel is always worth discussing just to emphasize it's importance.
The recommended deload frequency I indicated is every 3-4 weeks. I always advocate deloading as indicated even if you feel you don't need it. The numbers don't lie and the workload performed in 4 or even 3 full weeks of training is very high.
Therefore I still suggest deloading. You can do it after you completed 3 full weeks of training OR 4 full weeks of training, there is a little bit of discretion left up to the lifter, but whatever you choose don't neglect it.
Even if you are making steady strength gains right up until week 4 (this would be a lifter who has above average recovery capability) there are other considerations as well. One consideration would be staying injury free: the deload is hugely critical to letting any small aches and pains dissipate and keep from growing into something worse. And also mental freshness. The week off will have you motivated as frick to perform well when you get back in the gym. This in itself can promote some nice gains.
So to answer your question, yes, you should still deload. Do it once you have completed 3 or 4 full weeks of training as indicated in the OP, whichever you prefer. I complete 4 full weeks of training before deloading personally.
•
Standing Calf Raises 5 sets for 15 reps
Seated Calf Raises 5 sets for 20-25 reps
Performed ED or EOD.
I do this ED at the end of the workout or about half way through my accessory work (I finish the other half once calf work is done). I wouldn't go anymore infrequently than EOD.
I have some theories on calf work and why it's such a difficult muscle to grow, but for now my recommendation is mostly just using higher rep ranges while still being progressive with the weight. I don't think that intensity is very important for this muscle.
Regarding calf work (again):
Even though I stated that I don't believe intensity is very important for calf work, the lifter can use higher intensities or even go close to failure on calf work without much detriment to the rest of their training, but I don't believe there will be any additional benefits. That is why I don't recommend doing either of those things, but it won't be detrimental.
I also think the indicated rep ranges I posted for calf work are ideal.
Frequency will probably be the most important factor though, and doing it consistently / regularly enough.
[This is why I do calf work right in the middle of my accessory work some times instead of leaving it for the end. More consistent with this setup.]
My original suspicion was that calves are primarily slow twitch but I don't believe this is entirely the case or the sole explanation. There are other factors for why calves are a bitch. But the work I indicated in the earlier post is what I believe to be ideal and what has worked best for me in the past and currently as well.
• It's a good thing you brought up the deloading subject. This is something I feel is always worth discussing just to emphasize it's importance.
The recommended deload frequency I indicated is every 3-4 weeks. I always advocate deloading as indicated even if you feel you don't need it. The numbers don't lie and the workload performed in 4 or even 3 full weeks of training is very high.
Therefore I still suggest deloading. You can do it after you completed 3 full weeks of training OR 4 full weeks of training, there is a little bit of discretion left up to the lifter, but whatever you choose don't neglect it.
Even if you are making steady strength gains right up until week 4 (this would be a lifter who has above average recovery capability) there are other considerations as well. One consideration would be staying injury free: the deload is hugely critical to letting any small aches and pains dissipate and keep from growing into something worse. And also mental freshness. The week off will have you motivated as frick to perform well when you get back in the gym. This in itself can promote some nice gains.
So to answer your question, yes, you should still deload. Do it once you have completed 3 or 4 full weeks of training as indicated in the OP, whichever you prefer. I complete 4 full weeks of training before deloading personally.
•
Posted on 7/18/17 at 1:01 pm to lsu777
I would suggest to continue performing Incline bench with a barbell. I'm not a fan of dumbbell pressing personally.
Your performance will be fine even though you are doing 2 pressing movements with barbell, so don't worry. You will be making steady progress in both lifts.
• The thing with certain sport specific movements or lifts is that they have special considerations for the rep ranges used and how sets are performed. Surprisingly, the clean and press is something I see listed in some bodybuilding routines and it always surprises me when I see them indicating the lifter to do 3x10 or something like that for that kind of movement. The full movements generally aren't performed with the rep ranges we're using here because technique breakdown and form issues WILL occur at that point. It is not ideal.
I hesitate to make recommendations on lifts like that because the lifts themselves can take a very long time to master and because of how absurdly technical they are. My standard recommendation for anyone who has any interest in the oly lifts is always to get a coach.
The other stuff can be implemented without much detriment in place of some of the accessory work you currently do. It would just make your training slightly less bodybuilding oriented.
You can do bent over barbell rows instead of seated rows but the reason I didn't include those is because [1] I like doing upper back work in a more bodybuilding style (there are actually quite a few strength guys out there who take a similar approach too) and [2] extra fatigue for your low back. The second point might not be a big deal because we aren't back squatting and RDL's are very mild on the low back, but the frequency of everything is very high, so who knows.
The farmers walk can be added at the end of your workouts after all the accessory work is performed or whenever you feel, just regulate it so it isn't impacting the rest of your training.
Let me know what kind of specific movements you want to address in your training and I will try and find a way to implement it without any detriment to your bodybuilding goals.
• On neglecting the deload weeks
“Happens to the best of us, I can't tell you how many times I've overreached hard just because I didn't want to take time off because I was on cycle - dual factor training with scheduled deloads requires a lifter to be pragmatic when it comes to recovery and dissipating fatigue. I struggle with this too, I think most people do. Probably why the train and recover approach is still so prevalent in the bb'ing world.
It becomes an easier pill to swallow just by making a simple adjustment in your mindset - don't think of the deload week as doing nothing, think of it as you actively addressing the recovery aspect of your training and approach it with that mindset. Get in lots of calories, address any problem areas through things like massage, A.R.T, if it's needed or the budget allows for it. I find foods like red meat and cholesterol based foods like whole eggs and whole milk help a lot with recovery following training bouts, so I incorporate more of these foods.
And prepare mentally for the forthcoming weeks of training once the deload is over so you are mentally fresh and ready to train hard knowing your performance will be through the roof.”
• You can find a RM calculator on google.
I would recommend using a little bit less than what the calculator gives you at the start, this is a good idea for a number of reasons. First the calculations aren't always 100%, other factors might make it so your real max for that rep range can vary (SAID principle always applies).
Using slightly less will allow you to get in to the groove of the routine and once it picks up you will be adding weight no problem. This way you don't end up getting fricked by a weight too heavy at the start and fail to meet your total tonnage requirements.
• The reason you might have felt this way though is because a lot of lifters are used to spending an entire session hammering just one muscle group. Of course they will get a better pump in their arms if they spent an hour training just their bi's but they will not grow as much as this routine, I am confident in saying this.
Unfortunately I can't fix this, but I don't feel that it's a problem really. You will be getting much better growth and strength gains on this routine. It simply requires a lifter to be pragmatic with how they handle their training. On that note, I would say the hardest pill to swallow for most would be the scheduled deload. Nobody wants to take time off despite the fact that it will drive progress to an absurdly beneficial degree.
As far as training for the pump goes - we really don't know to what extent it may benefit growth, but we do know what does definitely drive growth, and that's recruiting and exhausting high threshold motor units, and this routine does a damn good job of that. But training based entirely on the pump is, imo, not optimal. The blood flow = growth theory has been discredited by the Soviets years ago.
But something to consider: lets just go with the assumption that the pump benefits growth - well, wouldn't you agree that having all your muscles pumped pretty much everyday by a reasonable amount will be superior for growth than having 1 muscle really pumped for just 1 day of the week and going completely flat and not being touched for the rest of the week (like on a bro split)?
Food for thought
•
Your performance will be fine even though you are doing 2 pressing movements with barbell, so don't worry. You will be making steady progress in both lifts.
• The thing with certain sport specific movements or lifts is that they have special considerations for the rep ranges used and how sets are performed. Surprisingly, the clean and press is something I see listed in some bodybuilding routines and it always surprises me when I see them indicating the lifter to do 3x10 or something like that for that kind of movement. The full movements generally aren't performed with the rep ranges we're using here because technique breakdown and form issues WILL occur at that point. It is not ideal.
I hesitate to make recommendations on lifts like that because the lifts themselves can take a very long time to master and because of how absurdly technical they are. My standard recommendation for anyone who has any interest in the oly lifts is always to get a coach.
The other stuff can be implemented without much detriment in place of some of the accessory work you currently do. It would just make your training slightly less bodybuilding oriented.
You can do bent over barbell rows instead of seated rows but the reason I didn't include those is because [1] I like doing upper back work in a more bodybuilding style (there are actually quite a few strength guys out there who take a similar approach too) and [2] extra fatigue for your low back. The second point might not be a big deal because we aren't back squatting and RDL's are very mild on the low back, but the frequency of everything is very high, so who knows.
The farmers walk can be added at the end of your workouts after all the accessory work is performed or whenever you feel, just regulate it so it isn't impacting the rest of your training.
Let me know what kind of specific movements you want to address in your training and I will try and find a way to implement it without any detriment to your bodybuilding goals.
• On neglecting the deload weeks
“Happens to the best of us, I can't tell you how many times I've overreached hard just because I didn't want to take time off because I was on cycle - dual factor training with scheduled deloads requires a lifter to be pragmatic when it comes to recovery and dissipating fatigue. I struggle with this too, I think most people do. Probably why the train and recover approach is still so prevalent in the bb'ing world.
It becomes an easier pill to swallow just by making a simple adjustment in your mindset - don't think of the deload week as doing nothing, think of it as you actively addressing the recovery aspect of your training and approach it with that mindset. Get in lots of calories, address any problem areas through things like massage, A.R.T, if it's needed or the budget allows for it. I find foods like red meat and cholesterol based foods like whole eggs and whole milk help a lot with recovery following training bouts, so I incorporate more of these foods.
And prepare mentally for the forthcoming weeks of training once the deload is over so you are mentally fresh and ready to train hard knowing your performance will be through the roof.”
• You can find a RM calculator on google.
I would recommend using a little bit less than what the calculator gives you at the start, this is a good idea for a number of reasons. First the calculations aren't always 100%, other factors might make it so your real max for that rep range can vary (SAID principle always applies).
Using slightly less will allow you to get in to the groove of the routine and once it picks up you will be adding weight no problem. This way you don't end up getting fricked by a weight too heavy at the start and fail to meet your total tonnage requirements.
• The reason you might have felt this way though is because a lot of lifters are used to spending an entire session hammering just one muscle group. Of course they will get a better pump in their arms if they spent an hour training just their bi's but they will not grow as much as this routine, I am confident in saying this.
Unfortunately I can't fix this, but I don't feel that it's a problem really. You will be getting much better growth and strength gains on this routine. It simply requires a lifter to be pragmatic with how they handle their training. On that note, I would say the hardest pill to swallow for most would be the scheduled deload. Nobody wants to take time off despite the fact that it will drive progress to an absurdly beneficial degree.
As far as training for the pump goes - we really don't know to what extent it may benefit growth, but we do know what does definitely drive growth, and that's recruiting and exhausting high threshold motor units, and this routine does a damn good job of that. But training based entirely on the pump is, imo, not optimal. The blood flow = growth theory has been discredited by the Soviets years ago.
But something to consider: lets just go with the assumption that the pump benefits growth - well, wouldn't you agree that having all your muscles pumped pretty much everyday by a reasonable amount will be superior for growth than having 1 muscle really pumped for just 1 day of the week and going completely flat and not being touched for the rest of the week (like on a bro split)?
Food for thought
•
Posted on 7/18/17 at 1:01 pm to lsu777
On a somewhat related note, if some of you guys need something to keep your knees warm then I would recommend buying some elastic tensor bandages from the pharmacy. These aren't normal wraps so you won't really get any added strength from them but your knees will feel much better.
The reason I recommend these instead of any other wrap for those who need them is because they allow you to move fast under the bar which is ideal for front squat - you don't want to wrap them tight really, just enough to keep your knees warm.
If you don't need them then don't bother, but I figured some might be interested.
Also, make sure you stretch your quads every now and then.
I only use minimal warm-up but I leave this up to the individual, find something that doesn't inhibit performance but gets you ready and primed for your working sets. For me usually just a couple sets. I used to be able to just go straight into my working sets with no warm-up whatsoever, I can still do this but it's kind of stupid for a number of reasons, so I warm up now.
You want to pick a weight you can absolutely smash 3x8 with on the 80% days. In fact, I recommend starting the program with weights you KNOW you can hit for the prescribed rep ranges with a couple reps in the tank. This is allow you to ease into the workload so you don't get smashed with a weight that's too heavy at the jump.
Doing that might make it seem easy it first, but once it picks up and you starting adding weight then you will start to appreciate the smooth and enjoyable start to the program lol. It will get challenging soon enough.
Obviously if 200lbs is 80% of your (estimated) 1RM and you only got 5 reps with that at the start of the program, you need to lower that weight to something you can hit 3x8 with.
Due to SAID principle and I'm sure lots of other factors, the estimated RM for any given rep range will not always be something you can hit in person so you need to adjust. This is one reason why I'm going to move away from using strict percentages in future programs. There's better tech we can make use of these days.
• Absolutely, in a routine like this direct front delt work is certainly not necessary. It has benefits for advanced bodybuilders when it comes to size but even then I only use it very sparingly. I've never been a fan of excessive volume for front delts / direct front delt work, it can make your physique look unbalanced if you don't know how to balance volume. Just get bigger rear delts and side delts and let your pressing handle your front delts.
The reason I recommend these instead of any other wrap for those who need them is because they allow you to move fast under the bar which is ideal for front squat - you don't want to wrap them tight really, just enough to keep your knees warm.
If you don't need them then don't bother, but I figured some might be interested.
Also, make sure you stretch your quads every now and then.
I only use minimal warm-up but I leave this up to the individual, find something that doesn't inhibit performance but gets you ready and primed for your working sets. For me usually just a couple sets. I used to be able to just go straight into my working sets with no warm-up whatsoever, I can still do this but it's kind of stupid for a number of reasons, so I warm up now.
You want to pick a weight you can absolutely smash 3x8 with on the 80% days. In fact, I recommend starting the program with weights you KNOW you can hit for the prescribed rep ranges with a couple reps in the tank. This is allow you to ease into the workload so you don't get smashed with a weight that's too heavy at the jump.
Doing that might make it seem easy it first, but once it picks up and you starting adding weight then you will start to appreciate the smooth and enjoyable start to the program lol. It will get challenging soon enough.
Obviously if 200lbs is 80% of your (estimated) 1RM and you only got 5 reps with that at the start of the program, you need to lower that weight to something you can hit 3x8 with.
Due to SAID principle and I'm sure lots of other factors, the estimated RM for any given rep range will not always be something you can hit in person so you need to adjust. This is one reason why I'm going to move away from using strict percentages in future programs. There's better tech we can make use of these days.
• Absolutely, in a routine like this direct front delt work is certainly not necessary. It has benefits for advanced bodybuilders when it comes to size but even then I only use it very sparingly. I've never been a fan of excessive volume for front delts / direct front delt work, it can make your physique look unbalanced if you don't know how to balance volume. Just get bigger rear delts and side delts and let your pressing handle your front delts.
Posted on 7/18/17 at 1:16 pm to lsu777
Damn son. Why did you choose this workout to post? I haven't read it all but just wondering why.
Posted on 7/18/17 at 1:20 pm to Hu_Flung_Pu
because people were asking for a 6 day workout or how to adapt greyskull to more days.
This keeps the progressive overload principles along with the big lift principles of greyskull but intellegently works them into a real program already designed for 6 days.
also this is imo the best program for intermeddiate lifters who want to put on muscle but want more days than 531 offers.
Overall I feel this rivals any of the better known programs in design and sustainability when it comes to intermeddiates and advanced lifters.
This keeps the progressive overload principles along with the big lift principles of greyskull but intellegently works them into a real program already designed for 6 days.
also this is imo the best program for intermeddiate lifters who want to put on muscle but want more days than 531 offers.
Overall I feel this rivals any of the better known programs in design and sustainability when it comes to intermeddiates and advanced lifters.
Posted on 7/18/17 at 1:23 pm to lsu777
quote:
lsu777
Would the volume be sufficient while on AAS?
Posted on 7/18/17 at 1:29 pm to The Dudes Rug
considering it was originally posted on an AAS board yes. But training should not change just because one decides to take AAS. Smart training is smart training no matter what you are taking.
Posted on 7/18/17 at 2:21 pm to lsu777
Holy freaking wall of text Batman.
Posted on 7/18/17 at 2:35 pm to 504Voodoo
hey I broke it up with numbering 
sorry TD is a pain in the arse to copy and paste too.
sorry TD is a pain in the arse to copy and paste too. Posted on 7/18/17 at 3:11 pm to lsu777
I like the way this program looks, especially heading towards my bulk. Do you have it anywhere in PDF form or something. Looking to change up a little this year for my bulk
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