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Starting a Nano-Brewery

Posted on 4/23/15 at 1:29 pm
Posted by BugAC
St. George
Member since Oct 2007
52762 posts
Posted on 4/23/15 at 1:29 pm
I've read about the pitfalls of a nano brewery, and many suggest to not even bother with a Nano, and just go to a minimum 10-15 barrel brew system.

However, i'm still working and don't have any plans to quit. But I think it would be fun to rent a small warehouse size area (thinking LA Homebrew size) and brewing on Saturdays and selling the brews.

My question is, what are the permits needed in order to start doing this? What are the costs of distributing typically like? How much does a keg of craft brew get sold for? It would be fun to brew maybe a barrel/weekend (or more) and sell kegs. I'm wondering if the "other expenses" would outweigh the money you could make off of it.

The reason i'm asking here, is that I assume there are a few within homebrewers here who have looked into it.

I enjoy brewing immensely and if it were cost efficient, i'd love to do this on the weekends, and if it took off and the demand was strong enough, it would be a nice dream to chase. Especially with some experience on the nano size.
Posted by 8thyearsenior
Centennial, CO
Member since Mar 2006
4280 posts
Posted on 4/23/15 at 1:37 pm to
LINK

Shoot Scott at Wit's End an email, he did exactly what you are talking about doing. He is one of the nicest guys I have ever met and I am sure he would talk to you about it.

He has rented a little warehouse and only used to be open about 10 hrs a week. He is slowly expanding. I would guess that you wouldn't distribute at first or sell kegs. Also, just because you can make a good 5-10 gallon batch doesn't mean you can just scale that recipe up to 31 gallons(1 barrel), it is a lot more complicated than that. A lot of new breweries here don't understand that point. They then have bills coming that need to get paid so they are forced to sell crappy beer to patrons like myself who will never return. Have the capital set aside to make a few bad batches that you dump.
Posted by Salmon
On the trails
Member since Feb 2008
83522 posts
Posted on 4/23/15 at 1:39 pm to
I have no answers to any of your questions, but your idea sounds exactly like what the Red River guys did to start. They all kept their jobs and just brewed on the weekends.

They are trying to all in though right now with a full brewery and taproom.

Posted by LSUGrad00
Member since Dec 2003
2428 posts
Posted on 4/23/15 at 1:42 pm to
I keep this post from probrewer.com bookmarked and I go back and read it every time I think of opening a nano-brewery or brew pub in addition to my current job.

I enjoy brewing and sharing my beer, but I'm not sure I'd enjoy all the other bullshite that goes along with it.


LINK

quote:

Nanobrewery - The Lessons I've Learned

I've operated Parish Brewing Co. for over 2 years now, furiously brewing a nano-amount of beer. I get several emails every week from aspiring nano-brewers from all over the country and they all have the same questions about my experiences, my custom equipment, and other general info about starting a tiny commercial brewery. If the probrewer community would humor me, I'd like to use this as a place to get some FAQs documented since I cannot answer all of the emails I get with the full respect and well thought-out answers they deserve. Hopefully this can help some of you daydreaming out there get some answers. Some of these answers may not be what you want to hear, but they are based in fact and my actual experience. I know I would have appreciated some of this info before I embarked upon the nanobrewery path.

1.) Nanobreweries are not profitable. Well, at least if you have to sell at wholesale. The only way a nano can be in the black is if you can sell most or all of your production at full retail price. Even then the return will not justify spending the capital required to get it going. A nano will never, ever make enough profit to pay for organic growth of the brewery. Period.
1)(b) On the other hand, a nano is a great vehicle to get the investment needed to finance a viable craft brewery. In my opinion, that is the only rational reason to go through all of the trouble to build and operate a nano. If you do not have a plan to finance a viable larger operation, don't build a nano. The nano can be used to show real revenue and cost structure in your market, and can be extrapolated to any project size from there.

2.) You can use cheap equipment, like plastic fermenters, and make great beer. They will not last very long, and you have to be seriously anal-retentive about taking care of them and sanitization, but they work. I used some stainless drums found on craigslist for the brewhouse, etc. There are some creative ways to make brewing equipment in the 50 to 150 gal size range and don't be afraid to try something new. I mean, some of the finest brews in the world are fermented in a wood container. Think about that the next time you drool over that cherry, stainless jacketed conical fermenter that probably costs more than my entire brewhouse and cellar combined. Also, most of the money you will spend getting the nano going will not be on brewing equipment. The cost of kegs, walk-in cooler, operating capital, etc will all be likely more than 50% of your total startup cost.

3.) Save your money for another year or two and buy something bigger. Seriously, this is the best advice I can give. If your beer is halfway decent, you will sell way more than you can ever produce on a nano system. You will bust arse like you've never busted arse before and it will still not be anywhere close to being enough beer. Trust me. If your beer is good you will need more than a nano. If your beer isn't good, you probably wouldn't be reading this. Simply put a nano produces a painfully small amount of beer. Save your money for another year or two, get something at least bigger than 7 bbl brew length, and then send me a case of your finest when you realize I was right.

4.) Permitting is a bitch. There are lots of government agencies, and they all want a piece. Get used to it. You get no special treatment because you are a tiny, low cost operation. If they want you to put covers on your fluorescent lights, you better be ready to shell out for that manlift rental. Start talking to your respective agencies as early as possible. There is no best way to start, there is no road map. Every professional brewer on this forum has had to figure it out on their own, unfortunately. Go forth. Be brave. Approach your various govt agencies, be polite, and you will eventually get all of your permits and licenses in hand.

5.) Operating a nano every day isn't very fun. It makes a really fun hobby a painful job - a 2nd job that you work on the evenings and weekends. I know it seems like fun now. You need to have some serious stamina to keep up the pace required to work a day job and also the nanobrewery. I have a huge amount of respect for any of the other nano owners out there who have made it work. They will never get the credit they deserve from most of the craft brewing community for the pain and sacrifice it takes. Just because its a small brewery doesn't mean its any less work than a larger version. I only recently quit my day job to focus on our new large brewery, but until then I worked every weekend for over 2 years. Think about that for a minute. No more fishing. No Saints games. Countless hours of time lost with my toddler daughter and wonderful wife. Whatever you love to do beside brewing and drinking great craft beer, it will probably have to go on the back burner.

6.) It is incredibly rewarding to brew for a living and to hear someone say they love your beer - and that's totally worth all of the bullshite noted above.

Cheers!
Andrew Godley
Parish Brewing Co.
Broussard, Louisiana
Posted by BugAC
St. George
Member since Oct 2007
52762 posts
Posted on 4/23/15 at 1:46 pm to
quote:

I would guess that you wouldn't distribute at first or sell kegs.


Does Colorado use the 3-tier system, or is he able to self distribute?

quote:

Also, just because you can make a good 5-10 gallon batch doesn't mean you can just scale that recipe up to 31 gallons(1 barrel),


Oh i'm well aware of this. I was just thinking of taking 2 - 15 gallon brew setups and making 2 batches on a Saturday. It's just thoughts at the moment as i read my brewery books.
Posted by SouthOfSouth
Baton Rouge
Member since Jun 2008
43456 posts
Posted on 4/23/15 at 1:47 pm to
I've looked into it a lot and the problem with nano brewing in Louisiana is unless you plan on selling 100% on site you have to go through a distributor. When you go through a distributor they take almost all the profits.

I do think a viable option for a brewer is a brewpub.

You would need to get a nanobrewery license which is only like 1k or so if I remember correctly. You can sell your beer that you make for a quarter for $5 so you don't have to make nearly the amount you would otherwise to make a profit.

Problem here is that you can't just rent a small warehouse and brew there cause this would be a bar, a business where location is key. And part of the nanobrewery license is that you sell your beer 100% on-site so you have to brew where you sell. Obviously limits upside, but if you really killed it as a brewpub owner, you could reclassify and get the brewery license (where only 5% of your beer can be sold on-site for retail prices.
Posted by BugAC
St. George
Member since Oct 2007
52762 posts
Posted on 4/23/15 at 1:55 pm to
quote:

LSUGrad00




I've asked Andrew questions before and he briefly told me how much a nano-brewery sucks.

I read a bunch of information on starting breweries and it is quite discouraging. Especially if you don't have a stockpile of money sitting at the ready, and if you have no idea how to weld. Also, for craft breweries, you rarely get to brew your beer. Most of your time is spent dealing with vendors, accounts, payroll, etc... to where there is no time to be the brewmaster.

But it's always a thought in my mind when i feel like i'd much rather work for myself. I have a friend who up and started a small business out of a warehouse while still working. He's not doing bad, and what he's doing isn't as cost prohibitive as a brewery.

Thanks for the post.

ETA: and who are the 2 assholes downvoted me without commenting?
Posted by LSUGrad00
Member since Dec 2003
2428 posts
Posted on 4/23/15 at 1:55 pm to
quote:

a business where location is key


meh, beer geeks will go out of their way for a good beer and WAY out of their way for world class beer.

You more likely to run into stupid zoning issues if you tried to rent a warehouse and turn it into a bar in Baton Rogue.

Posted by SouthOfSouth
Baton Rouge
Member since Jun 2008
43456 posts
Posted on 4/23/15 at 1:56 pm to
quote:

meh, beer geeks will go out of their way for a good beer and WAY out of their way for world class beer.

You more likely to run into stupid zoning issues if you tried to rent a warehouse and turn it into a bar in Baton Rogue.


Guess there is some truth there, but I mean you'd likely be trying to get more than beer geeks to go to your brewpub. While we do have a good amount of them in BR, there's also alot of others who will not go far distances out of their way to go to a bar.
This post was edited on 4/23/15 at 1:57 pm
Posted by BugAC
St. George
Member since Oct 2007
52762 posts
Posted on 4/23/15 at 1:59 pm to
quote:

I do think a viable option for a brewer is a brewpub.


I've looked into this as well. I had an idea of doing a brewpub plus sell oustanding bar-b-q. I started looking into Aaron Franklin's pits and how that world works. I make a damn fine smoked brisket and smoked boston butt, but with a son and a wife, and more kids to come, i could never do it, especially both. The good BBQ guys start their days at 3 am, and don't clock out until 7. And even then, they hire someone to manage the pits overnight. Takes anywhere from 12-18 hours to do good brisket and i couldn't even imagine how hard it is to do that on a much larger scale in a much larger pit.

And then trying to find time to brew.

I'm a cautious guy and this kind of stuff stresses me out.
This post was edited on 4/23/15 at 2:02 pm
Posted by SouthOfSouth
Baton Rouge
Member since Jun 2008
43456 posts
Posted on 4/23/15 at 2:03 pm to
quote:

I've looked into this as well. I had an idea of doing a brewpub plus sell oustanding bar-b-q. I started looking into Aaron Franklin's pits and how that world works. I make a damn fine smoked brisket and smoked boston butt, but with a son and a wife, and more kids to come, i could never do it, especially both. The good BBQ guys start their days at 3 am, and don't clock out until 7. And even then, they hire someone to manage the pits overnight. Takes anywhere from 12-18 hours to do good brisket and i couldn't even imagine how hard it is to do that on a much larger scale in a much larger pit.

And then trying to find time to brew.


I thought of trying to team up with a restaurateur who could do the kitchen and have the beer paired with different meals, or having a food truck stop type place where you could get food trucks there to try and get customers.

Or you could treat it like an ordinary bar with a "house beer" or house beer line that could attract the beer drinkers.

I've been consulted by a bar owner in BR who has started brewing so that he can have a house brew at his bar if it all turns out well. Will be interesting to see the concept in practice if it all works out.
This post was edited on 4/23/15 at 2:05 pm
Posted by LoneStarTiger
Lone Star State
Member since Aug 2004
15936 posts
Posted on 4/23/15 at 2:04 pm to
quote:

Guess there is some truth there, but I mean you'd likely be trying to get more than beer geeks to go to your brewpub.


if all you have is a nano, beer geeks will drink you dry.

my advice is to make some great beers, then find investors that are willing to pay for you to make great beer.
This post was edited on 4/23/15 at 2:07 pm
Posted by 8thyearsenior
Centennial, CO
Member since Mar 2006
4280 posts
Posted on 4/23/15 at 2:06 pm to
quote:

Does Colorado use the 3-tier system, or is he able to self distribute?


Wits End doesn't distribute. The only place you are getting his beer is at the brewery or at a festival he is pouring at.

Colorado is very friendly with its liquor laws, the governor started Wynkoop years ago. You can self distribute here and a lot of places do like Casey, Comrade, and a bunch of others. I doubt Louisiana is this way.
Posted by BugAC
St. George
Member since Oct 2007
52762 posts
Posted on 4/23/15 at 2:07 pm to
quote:

I've been consulted by a bar owner in BR who has started brewing so that he can have a house brew at his bar if it all turns out well. Will be interesting to see the concept in practice if it all works out.


Guy I know, tells me about a buddy of his that was thinking of doing the same thing. May be the same guy.
Posted by SouthOfSouth
Baton Rouge
Member since Jun 2008
43456 posts
Posted on 4/23/15 at 2:07 pm to
quote:

if all you have is a nano, beer geeks will drink you dry.


If I was to go for it fully, I'd probably have a house line of beer and outside liquor and possibly domestics. Don't think you could or would want to do this part time so might as well go all in.
Posted by LSUGrad00
Member since Dec 2003
2428 posts
Posted on 4/23/15 at 2:10 pm to
quote:

I do think a viable option for a brewer is a brewpub.


This sounds like the lowest level of hell to me...

Instead of brewing, which is what you really want to do, you get to pay someone else to brew while you play babysitter to cooks and waitreses and deal with restaurant drama..

Not to mention that as soon as you bring food into a brewery you are deal with all sorts of new inspections and regulations.
Posted by SouthOfSouth
Baton Rouge
Member since Jun 2008
43456 posts
Posted on 4/23/15 at 2:12 pm to
quote:


Instead of brewing, which is what you really want to do, you get to pay someone else to brew while you play babysitter to cooks and waitreses and deal with restaurant drama..


The brewpub honestly could just be a bar that makes their own beer. I agree dealing with a restaurant would be hell.

I used the term brewpub to brew to life the idea of only selling the beer on site which is what a nanobrewery license in Louisiana allows.
This post was edited on 4/23/15 at 2:13 pm
Posted by LSUBoo
Knoxville, TN
Member since Mar 2006
101915 posts
Posted on 4/23/15 at 2:15 pm to
quote:

This sounds like the lowest level of hell to me...

Instead of brewing, which is what you really want to do, you get to pay someone else to brew while you play babysitter to cooks and waitreses and deal with restaurant drama..

Not to mention that as soon as you bring food into a brewery you are deal with all sorts of new inspections and regulations.


No one says you have to serve food.

And you'd have the option to have other beers on tap besides your own.

That's absolutely the route I would go if I was trying to start in the industry. The Courtyard route.
Posted by SouthOfSouth
Baton Rouge
Member since Jun 2008
43456 posts
Posted on 4/23/15 at 2:23 pm to
Agreed.

I've thought many times how great it would be to get 2/3 homebrewers together with a sense of business and do a bar. Have a line of house beers as well as other domestic beers and liquors.

Basically have one of the brewers as a bartender as often as possible to discuss the beer with patrons to give input and help them feel like part of the brand and process. Brew during the day during the week and have a bar with beer stuff all over it. Cool equipment, interesting beer facts, old beer making equipment from long ago, etc.

Then you could host food cart rallies once or twice a week to help get customers there.

Would be a really cool concept that I think would do very well in BR.
Posted by LoneStarTiger
Lone Star State
Member since Aug 2004
15936 posts
Posted on 4/23/15 at 2:25 pm to
quote:

Operating a nano every day isn't very fun. It makes a really fun hobby a painful job - a 2nd job that you work on the evenings and weekends.


this is the second thing that keeps me from even entertaining the daydream.

the first is that I can barely handle being a home brewer and getting that right and producing a beer fit to drink.

I have one beer to keg, one souring, and one I need to brew and just that feels like a lot to worry about.
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