MSB Season Long Hockey Thread - Page 108 - TigerDroppings.com

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WicKed WayZ
USA Fan
Meridian, MS
Member since Sep 2011
6906 posts

re: MSB Season Long Hockey Thread


Why the frick did the Rangers trade Gaborik?





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Baloo
LSU Fan
Formerly MDGeaux
Member since Sep 2003
43591 posts

re: MSB Season Long Hockey Thread


quote:

Why the frick did the Rangers trade Gaborik?

Torts. Gaborik is in his doghouse.


Now that my initial reaction is over, I'm warming to the deal. OK, it's an overpayment, and I freely admit that, but I see what the Caps are thinking. Forsberg still hasn't cracked the Swedish Elite League, a level that MarJo and Backstrom were both f'n dominating at the same age. I think the Caps feel Forsberg is an inferior version of Johannson. Forsberg is also a RW and the Caps RW depth chart right now is Ovie, Brouwer, Ward, and Fehr on the NHL roster, and Wilson, their best prosepct in the US. Where does Forsberg fit in?

Also, a lot of the Caps core is signed through 2015. You really are committed to going all in because you're already pot committed. Might as well trade a guy who doesn't look like he's in your longterm plans to get a guy to help through that window.

Still an overpayment. But it makes philosophical sense.







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UnluckyTiger
Illinois Fan
Member since Sep 2003
20661 posts

re: MSB Season Long Hockey Thread


Forsberg's ceiling is much higher than MaJo's and he probably would've made the team next year as a second line. If the Caps SOMEHOW manage to win the cup within the next 2 seasons or so, I'll eat crow on this trade. But as of now? It doesn't make much sense to me. You hoard all your top end prospects for years, afraid to go all in, and then you pull this? It reeks of desperation and a GM that is afraid to lose his job.

Erat is very good and might just be undervalued because of the defense first system employed in Nashville, but there are plenty of better options that probably could have been had for Forsberg.

I did think that all we needed was a top 6 winger to make a run this season, so I guess we'll see. But yeah, not happy right now.



This post was edited on 4/3 at 5:44 pm


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UltimateHog
Arkansas Fan
Springfield, MO
Member since Dec 2011
32139 posts

re: MSB Season Long Hockey Thread


Gaborik has sucked this year and is way overpaid to perform as poorly as he has this year. Makes sense.

Pens traded for Jokinen, solid depth guy there and familiar with Sutter. Like that move a lot.

Caps overpaid big time for Erat.

Flyers gonna Flyers.

Hawks, Habs stand pat.



This post was edited on 4/3 at 5:56 pm


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Baloo
LSU Fan
Formerly MDGeaux
Member since Sep 2003
43591 posts

re: MSB Season Long Hockey Thread


quote:

Forsberg's ceiling is much higher than MaJo's and he probably would've made the team next year as a second line.

I'd be shocked if he's on an NHL roster next season. He has never played a game at the highest level of Swedish hockey or a game in the North American minors. MarJo was already in the Elite League and then he stopped off at Hershey for half a season. At this stage of their development, MarJo was the better prospect (he also seems to have finally claimed his spot on the top line with Ovie and Backstrom).

quote:

If the Caps SOMEHOW manage to win the cup within the next 2 seasons or so, I'll eat crow on this trade. But as of now? It doesn't make much sense to me.

Ovie is in the late stages of his prime. Backs is in the middle of his. You have your core players' contracts all seemingly expiring in 2015. If you don't go all in now, for this three year window, there is never a time to do so. And they aren't signing Erat as a rental, this is essentially a free agent deal for 2.5 years. He will be here for the entire window.

quote:

You hoard all your top end prospects for years, afraid to go all in, and then you pull this? It reeks of desperation and a GM that is afraid to lose his job.

First, I don't think GMGM has been afraid to make deals. He traded for Arnott to fill the 2C hole as a rental. And when that didn't work, he traded Eakin for Ribiero.

As for hoarding prospects... hasn't that kind of paid off? He rebuilt the defense almost entirely from the farm. Since the 2010 flameout, he's added Alzner and Carlson to the top four, both from the prospect pool. He's also added Orlov and Kundratek as potential future stars and minor league free agents Hillen and Olseky. To the forward pool, he's added MaJo to the top line and Perrault to the third line. This has allowed him to build the rest of the forward pool through free agency. And he found the franchise goalie in Hotlby.

I don't think he's fearful for his job at all, but what he has done is build a team for this three-year window. From that 2010 team, only 8 players who appeared in 40 games are still on the roster (Chimera appeared in 39, so ok, nine). He has flipped the roster, adding a lot of youth on the blueline and rebuilt the forward lines. 5 of their top 9 forwards are 27 or under. 5 of their 6 blueliners are as well (and that's counting Erskine as a top 6 guy). And both goalies. The team is in their prime, and it's time to go for it.

This isn't a one year move. It's a three year move (Erat's contract length). GMGM also added a gritty center in the deal (Latta), addressing the now biggest hole on the roster. They need a big center for their checking line pretty badly, as Perrault can't drop to that line and Beagle's not really good enough.

I do think he overpaid, but the biggest hole forever was a 2C. He got Ribs. This year, everyone has said it's a top 6 forward. Voila. He has arrived. Which also allows Laich to play on the third line with Perrault and Ward. If this team can re-sign Ribs, there will be a two year window with the entire core under contract.






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UnluckyTiger
Illinois Fan
Member since Sep 2003
20661 posts

re: MSB Season Long Hockey Thread


quote:

I'd be shocked if he's on an NHL roster next season. He has never played a game at the highest level of Swedish hockey or a game in the North American minors. MarJo was already in the Elite League and then he stopped off at Hershey for half a season. At this stage of their development, MarJo was the better prospect (he also seems to have finally claimed his spot on the top line with Ovie and Backstrom).


He chose to stay in the SEL 2 to play with his hometown team and they completely outclassed every team in their league. They're moving up to the SEL next season. Nashville has even said they are trying to get him over THIS season. I would take him over MaJo every day of the week. And he is a much higher rated prospect at age 18 than MaJo was at 18.

quote:

Ovie is in the late stages of his prime. Backs is in the middle of his. You have your core players' contracts all seemingly expiring in 2015. If you don't go all in now, for this three year window, there is never a time to do so. And they aren't signing Erat as a rental, this is essentially a free agent deal for 2.5 years. He will be here for the entire window.


This is where I'm ok with the deal. The time to win has been now for quite a few years.

quote:

As for hoarding prospects... hasn't that kind of paid off? He rebuilt the defense almost entirely from the farm. Since the 2010 flameout, he's added Alzner and Carlson to the top four, both from the prospect pool. He's also added Orlov and Kundratek as potential future stars and minor league free agents Hillen and Olseky.


Has it? You have Alzner and Carlson as staples on the defense. MaJo is being forced into first and second line duties because the Caps don't really have any other better options. It's like trying to put a square peg into a round hole. Perreault is awesome, but he is nothing more than a 3rd liner.
You have Ovechkin/Backstrom, but it didn't take rocket science to draft those guys. You then have MaJo, Fehr, and Perreault. Fehr has been a bust for the most part considering he was a first round pick. MaJo is still young, but I just don't see him becoming a staple on the first 2 lines. Color me unimpressed.

We can look at the rest of the offense...who on offense is worthy of the first and second lines? He has surrounded Ovie and Backstrom with weak wingers.
Brouwer would be a second line winger at best on most teams.
Ribeiro is a stud and is a fantastic second line center.
Laich? Eh, overrated. Second line player at best. Fills roll at third line center the best, but since we have an abundance of third liners, he is placed on the second line.
Now he has added Erat. A replacement for the Semin departure. Guess who McPhee tried to replace Semin with over the offseason? That's right. Wojtek Wolski. 4 goals and 4 assists. Woo. McPhee has done a great job of bringing on a plethora of 3rd and 4th liners though. I will give him credit for that.

So, we have two awesome centers in Backstrom and Ribeiro with no one really dynamic to pass to except for Ovechkin. Semin on this team with Ribeiro would've been perfect. We have no true winger to go opposite of Ovechkin on the first line.

As for defense, beyond Carlson, Alzner, and Green there isn't much left. You have a bunch of 6/7 dmen. Orlov might be a star one day. Kundratek was acquired via trade and has been a pleasant surprise, but I don't expect him to ever be a top pairing dman. The team's veteran leader on defense is a 6th dman, Erskine.

quote:

I don't think he's fearful for his job at all, but what he has done is build a team for this three-year window. From that 2010 team, only 8 players who appeared in 40 games are still on the roster (Chimera appeared in 39, so ok, nine). He has flipped the roster, adding a lot of youth on the blueline and rebuilt the forward lines. 5 of their top 9 forwards are 27 or under. 5 of their 6 blueliners are as well (and that's counting Erskine as a top 6 guy). And both goalies. The team is in their prime, and it's time to go for it.


Ted Leonsis said this team had a 5 year window after they drafted Ovechkin. Here we are in 2013 and we're still under a plan? This isn't event he most talented Caps squad in the past 5 years. We have 3 top 4 pairing defensemen in Green, Carlson, and Alzner, and then a bunch of 6th-7th dmen to pair them with. Orlov and Kundratek are still a year or two away from really being staples in the lineup. Orlov can't even seem to get back in the lineup now that he is healthy. McPhee had the chance to bring in a Pronger, but he never pulled the trigger. He could've traded Carlson for him, but he pulled back.

quote:

do think he overpaid, but the biggest hole forever was a 2C. He got Ribs. This year, everyone has said it's a top 6 forward. Voila. He has arrived. Which also allows Laich to play on the third line with Perrault and Ward. If this team can re-sign Ribs, there will be a two year window with the entire core under contract.

Yes, he finally got a second line center. McPhee gets his second line center and what does he do? He let's his second line sniper walk. For nothing. And here we are trading Forsberg for a Semin replacement. McPhee wanted finesse with this team. They get bounced by Montreal and he decided the team needed more grit. This team went more grit and then didn't have the guns to outscore teams in a series and had to rely on Hunter Hockey. This team hasn't had a true direction in the past 2 seasons. Oates seems to be turning it around, but it's a work in progress. Oh, and we've had a goalie carousel ever since 2008 in the playoffs. Huet, Theodore, Varlamov, Neuvirth, and Holtby. We're just now getting stability at that position.



This post was edited on 4/3 at 9:40 pm


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UnluckyTiger
Illinois Fan
Member since Sep 2003
20661 posts

re: MSB Season Long Hockey Thread


McPhee is not the answer. Can you tell me how many times his Capitals have made it past the second round since he took over?





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Baloo
LSU Fan
Formerly MDGeaux
Member since Sep 2003
43591 posts

re: MSB Season Long Hockey Thread


Johannson scored 13 goals in the NHL as a 20 year old. As a 19 year old, he was first liner in the SEL. Forsberg has not played a game in the SEL. As a 18 year old, he was a little over a point a game player in the Swedish U-18 league. Same age, same league, MarJo scored 38 points in 24 games. I'll take production every time. So far, at every level at the same age, MarJo outperformed Forsberg. I do think Forsberg is a great prospect, and I didn't want to lose him, but the Caps aren't giving up the next Backstrom. They might not be even giving up the next Marcus Johannson (who is only 22 and on a 1st line in the NHl, which ain't that bad).

quote:

Alzner and Carlson are staples of the defense, but who did they have to learn from? Erskine? Hannan? Where was the big name dman that McPhee could have brought in over the past couple of years to really solidify the defense. Green isn't exactly a great mentor.

Who's been available? OK, he passed on Pronger, but that was to keep Carlson. I think GMGM made the right call to pass on that deal as Carlson is one of the rocks of the defense now. I think the guys they had to learn from were Poti and Hamrlik. Solid pros, but not transcendent talents. I'm not going to rip on the GM for not trading away his best d-man to get Chris Pronger for a year.

quote:

Yes, he finally got a second line center. Let's not pretend Jason Arnott was a long term fix. He was a one and done for a playoff push, and still wasn't exactly a young buck. McPhee gets his second line center and what does he do? He let's his second line sniper walk. For nothing. And here we are trading Forsberg for a Semin replacement

I wasn't trying to say Arnott was a long term fix, but GMGM did make a deadline deal to try and address a hole for a Cup run. Then, he tried to fix the problem longterm, and gave up a real asset. I just don't think we can criticize him for hoarding prospects and failing to address roster issues. He's completely revamped the roster.

Are we really sad Semin walked? He had a team that beat Boston and lost to the Rangers in a tough 7 game series. I think keeping Semin was worth the risk for a Cup run, but I'm not sad he's gone. And yeah, he had to trade an asset to get a Semin replacement. But the only reason he has that asset is because he traded Varlamov to Colorado. He turned Varly and Eakin into Erat and Ribs. That's a quality deal.

I do agree goalie instability has hurt the team, but he did try and deal with that. He signed Vokoun for way under market value, and that deal just didn't work out. He also has now found his guy who doesn't make much money for a few years. The time is now, and he is still protecting the future. After 2015, Kuz, Perrault, MarJo, and Wilson will all be 25 or under. The next generation is being worked in, he just decided Forsberg isn't in those plans due to a glut at RW.

Hell, Latta might fill a big organizational need, as he's a big bodied center.






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Baloo
LSU Fan
Formerly MDGeaux
Member since Sep 2003
43591 posts

re: MSB Season Long Hockey Thread


quote:

McPhee is not the answer. Can you tell me how many times his Capitals have made it past the second round since he took over?

Yzerman's made it past the second round. Would you rather have him? I wouldn't. The Caps have made the postseason five consecutive seasons. They cleared 100 points in three of those years. He also rebuilt the roster after 2010 while still making the postseason.

Do you think the Caps failure to advance has been because of McPhee? Has he not given the team the best chance to win? I judge a GM on whether he has put the team in a position to win, I think McPhee has.






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UnluckyTiger
Illinois Fan
Member since Sep 2003
20661 posts

re: MSB Season Long Hockey Thread


We'll have to agree to disagree on MaJo. I've been so unimpressed with him since his rookie season. I have seen no growth in his game. However; he's had a nice little run recently.

quote:

Who's been available? OK, he passed on Pronger, but that was to keep Carlson. I think GMGM made the right call to pass on that deal as Carlson is one of the rocks of the defense now. I think the guys they had to learn from were Poti and Hamrlik. Solid pros, but not transcendent talents. I'm not going to rip on the GM for not trading away his best d-man to get Chris Pronger for a year.



Right, but this team really could have used a veteran dman to come on and be with this team through it's prime run. We could've brought in a great guy through free agency like Dan Hamhuis. The players have been there to grab. I just really would've liked a veteran dman with a few years under his belt to really help solidify this defense. I wish Green had had a rock to play next to for the past few years instead of Jeff Freaking Schultz (whom is a complete bust as a McPhee draft pick.)

quote:

I wasn't trying to say Arnott was a long term fix, but GMGM did make a deadline deal to try and address a hole for a Cup run. Then, he tried to fix the problem longterm, and gave up a real asset. I just don't think we can criticize him for hoarding prospects and failing to address roster issues. He's completely revamped the roster.



I loved the deal at the time, so I'm not really knocking the Arnott move, just the fact that he tried to plug a hole with a temporary cork.

quote:

Are we really sad Semin walked? He had a team that beat Boston and lost to the Rangers in a tough 7 game series. I think keeping Semin was worth the risk for a Cup run, but I'm not sad he's gone. And yeah, he had to trade an asset to get a Semin replacement. But the only reason he has that asset is because he traded Varlamov to Colorado. He turned Varly and Eakin into Erat and Ribs. That's a quality deal.



Yes, I'm mad. Could you imagine rolling Ovechkin-Backstrom and then Semin-Ribeiro?? Semin has needed a badass second line center ever since Fedorov. You saw how he played with a real center like Arnott. Who were his other centers? Brooks Laich? Brendan Morrison? MaJo failed experiment?






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UnluckyTiger
Illinois Fan
Member since Sep 2003
20661 posts

re: MSB Season Long Hockey Thread


quote:

Do you think the Caps failure to advance has been because of McPhee? Has he not given the team the best chance to win? I judge a GM on whether he has put the team in a position to win, I think McPhee has.



Considering he has been here since the 97-98 Cup run, I'd say yeah, it is time to move on. And that team was Poile's. He has tried his plan here. It hasn't worked. They're the Atlanta Braves without a World Series title.



This post was edited on 4/3 at 9:49 pm


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UnluckyTiger
Illinois Fan
Member since Sep 2003
20661 posts

re: MSB Season Long Hockey Thread


This team had a 3 year window where I believed they could win it all. They got knocked out by the Pens in the second round, then got upset by Montreal in the first round, and finally got swept by the Lightning in embarrassing fashion the year after that. That was their window in my opinion.





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UnluckyTiger
Illinois Fan
Member since Sep 2003
20661 posts

re: MSB Season Long Hockey Thread


We'll see how these playoffs go, but I don't see them getting past the first round. The defense has turned into a sieve again. The offense finally looks like it is coming back to normal. I hope McPhee isn't around this summer. Someone else deserves a shot to build this team. They're not that far off from being elite again. They just need someone with the vision to put a real plan in place.





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Baloo
LSU Fan
Formerly MDGeaux
Member since Sep 2003
43591 posts

re: MSB Season Long Hockey Thread


quote:

Considering he has been here since the 97-98 Cup run, I'd say yeah, it is time to move on. And that team was Poile's. He has tried his plan here. It hasn't worked. They're the Atlanta Braves without a World Series title.

See, and I think having a consistently good team is a successful front office. Winning the title comes down to luck, but luck is the residue of design. He gets the Caps consistently in the hunt, which is what I want out of my front office.

He had a fire sale in 2004. Three seasons later, the team was in the playoffs. That would be like the Sabres or Flames being in the playoffs in 3-4 years, and posting the best record in five. And once he built the team with the best record in hockey, he completely revamped the roster over the past three seasons while continuing to win. That's pretty impressive.

I think his biggest flaw is "good soldier" contracts as he overpays to reward character guys, which is how the Schultz and Erskine deals happened. But he can fix that with the amnesty buyout this year (and while it may be blasphemy... I think he should consider buying out Laich, not Schultz)






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Drewbie
Arkansas Fan
tFlagship
Member since Jun 2012
15044 posts

re: MSB Season Long Hockey Thread


Pens lost 6-1 to the Rangers tonight. Lulz.

Ducks up 1-0 after 1 period on Dallas.






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UltimateHog
Arkansas Fan
Springfield, MO
Member since Dec 2011
32139 posts

re: MSB Season Long Hockey Thread


quote:

Pens lost 6-1 to the Rangers tonight. Lulz.



Still more points than Anaheim.






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Veritas
George Washington Fan
Northern Virginia
Member since Feb 2005
2247 posts

re: MSB Season Long Hockey Thread


Very good back and forth Baloo and UnluckyTiger.





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WicKed WayZ
USA Fan
Meridian, MS
Member since Sep 2011
6906 posts

re: MSB Season Long Hockey Thread


Intellectual sports debate.....does not compute :|





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UnluckyTiger
Illinois Fan
Member since Sep 2003
20661 posts

re: MSB Season Long Hockey Thread


Didn't mean to say the Caps won't make it past the first round. I think they will take out Toronto. Its getting past the second round (what's new?) that I doubt. I think they have the pieces on offense to make a run but the defense lately just scares me. Would need Holtby to steal some games, which he proved he could do last year. This team is still on the outside looking in and if they do grab that third seed, which I expect them to, they still have the possibility of finishing with less points than the 8th seed. Thats insane.

I've cooled on the trade a little but I still believe McPhee is in panic mode and needs to go.






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Baloo
LSU Fan
Formerly MDGeaux
Member since Sep 2003
43591 posts

re: MSB Season Long Hockey Thread


Life is risk. I'm with you, there is no guarantee this team makes it past the 1st round, much less the second. But the odds are better today than they were yesterday.

It comes down to this for me: this team is constructed that it has to try and win now or else it is wasting the prime of one of the best hockey players ever. Ovie is 27. This is the window. I also think one of the biggest issues with the Caps has been constant change. Ovie is on his fourth coach in five years. As I pointed out upthread, McPhee has flipped the roster.

Now, the team has a coach and it has its core locked in for this year and the next two seasons. I keep McPhee just for the stability. Let's have a plan and stick to it for more than a year. The team is built. It's now just re-arranging furniture. If they win a Cup, it's on McPhee and Ovie. If they fail, well, that's on them, too.

But it's time to go for it. The future is now.

Last bit on Forsberg... I think this move clearly shows the organization thinks Wilson is the better prospect. You may disagree with that evaluation, but I think there's many signs that Forsberg is more MarJo than Backstrom (which would still be a terrific get for Nashville). I also think we're ignoring the value of Latta. He's the Preds #3 prospect on Hockey Future, and he's a tough MF'er who plays center. The Caps sorely need both of those things, especially in the new Patrick Division. Latta has a lower upside but a higher certainty of reaching that potential. I think he takes over Hendricks' job on the fourth line next year. His most common comp is Steve Ott, which is a nice comp to have for a future fourth liner.






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