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BlackHelicopterPilot
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re: NBC : SCOTUS not prepared to issue sweeping gay rights ruling


quote:

The standing issue presents the SCOTUS with the opportunity of not having to rule on this case,



Why would you not say "...presents the SCOTUS with the OBLIGATION to not rule....."?



This is what I was getting at. You say "no standing" and then lament that it is the SCOTUS' "opportunity" to avoid.







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SlowFlowPro
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re: NBC : SCOTUS not prepared to issue sweeping gay rights ruling


quote:

how would there have been standing in the Ninth Circuit Court? Wouldn't it be thrown out of all federal courts?


that's what i'm wondering, too






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Turbeauxdog
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re: NBC : SCOTUS not prepared to issue sweeping gay rights ruling


quote:

Wouldn't it be thrown out of all federal courts?


Plaintiff was pro prop 8, meaning their case trying to uphold prop 8 would be thrown out I think






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Choctaw
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re: NBC : SCOTUS not prepared to issue sweeping gay rights ruling


Have you picked out your dress yet?





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Toddy
Ole Miss Fan
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Member since Jul 2010
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re: NBC : SCOTUS not prepared to issue sweeping gay rights ruling


quote:

This is what I was getting at. You say "no standing" and then lament that it is the SCOTUS' "opportunity" to avoid.



I see what you mean. If Protect Marriage doesn't have standing, then they don't have standing. But I also think that the SCOTUS is not prepared to rule, because they don't want to rule on this because it's so early in the fight. We are not quite late enough in the movement. This is not the "1967" (the year of Loving v. Virginia, when there were only 16 states left with interracial marriage bans)of the gay marriage fight. Does that make sense? I have a problem articulating what I mean sometimes.






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BlackHelicopterPilot
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re: NBC : SCOTUS not prepared to issue sweeping gay rights ruling


quote:

I have a problem articulating what I mean sometimes


You do quite well. It is just very personal for you and you fall into the trap of detracting from your argument with imprecise language.



THAT, like homosexuality, is simply human






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Godfather1
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re: NBC : SCOTUS not prepared to issue sweeping gay rights ruling


quote:

Have you picked out your dress yet?


As obnoxious as he's been with all this, if it goes down in his favor, he'd BETTER be fricking walking down the aisle with the first dude that asks him.






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SlowFlowPro
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re: NBC : SCOTUS not prepared to issue sweeping gay rights ruling


quote:

Does that make sense?

it makes sense but it's a horrible way for a legal system to operate. the law is the law






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beachdude
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re: NBC : SCOTUS not prepared to issue sweeping gay rights ruling


Never assume what an appellate court is going to do with a case based upon the statements made at oral argument.





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Turbeauxdog
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re: NBC : SCOTUS not prepared to issue sweeping gay rights ruling


It's so absolutely infuriating that the reason they won't issue a sweeping validation of homosexual marriages is that you think "they aren't ready"

Nothing to do with the actual constitutionality of it, just whether these self appointed and unelected stewards of moral guidance feel they are ready to strip the states of more power and force some ideology on the country.

The worst part toddy is, you are probably right.






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Nuts4LSU
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Washington, DC
Member since Oct 2003
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re: NBC : SCOTUS not prepared to issue sweeping gay rights ruling


quote:

I was afraid of this. They aren't ready. It sounds like they're not going to take the Prop 8 case at all because of the standing issue. If that happens, gay marriage will be legal in California but would not apply to any other state. Interestingly, if this does happen would this establish a precedent that any state that currently has gay marriage could not outlaw it (this was basically the verdict in the Walker courtroom, that a state could not take away a right that has been granted, ie, gay marriage) ?


If they throw it out on the standing issue, then that would also throw out the 9th Circuit ruling. The only precedent left standing would be the district court ruling, which was broader. Of course, no other court (not even another court within the 9th Circuit) would be bound by this precedent.

quote:

In a historic oral argument on a challenge to state laws that limit marriage to heterosexual couples, the Supreme Court indicated


Trying to divine what the court will do based on oral argument is an inexact science at best. After oral argument, practically everyone thought Obamacare was dead.






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Nuts4LSU
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re: NBC : SCOTUS not prepared to issue sweeping gay rights ruling


quote:

self appointed


You think someone can just appoint himself to the Supreme Court?






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Turbeauxdog
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re: NBC : SCOTUS not prepared to issue sweeping gay rights ruling


quote:

Wouldn't it be thrown out of all federal courts?


We afford the president the privilege to appoint supreme court justices not moral stewards






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Toddy
Ole Miss Fan
Atlanta
Member since Jul 2010
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re: NBC : SCOTUS not prepared to issue sweeping gay rights ruling


quote:

If they throw it out on the standing issue, then that would also throw out the 9th Circuit ruling. The only precedent left standing would be the district court ruling, which was broader. Of course, no other court (not even another court within the 9th Circuit) would be bound by this precedent.



OK. My bad. It would unspool all the way to the district court ruling. Gay marriage would still be legal in California though. Thanks for clarifying about it not setting a precedent.






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Nuts4LSU
LSU Fan
Washington, DC
Member since Oct 2003
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re: NBC : SCOTUS not prepared to issue sweeping gay rights ruling


quote:

If Protect Marriage doesn't have standing, then they don't have standing.


That is a tricky issue in this case and the DOMA case coming up tomorrow. It also may be an issue in future cases on this subject, which absolutely will keep coming. What makes it tricky is the unusual circumstance of a government not trying to defend its own law. The State of California is not defending Prop 8 and the U. S. Dept. of Justice is not defending DOMA. Typically, the government which enacts a law attempts to defend it when it is challenged.

In these cases, and likely many more to come, governments have political reasons not to defend the law. Some government officials (like President Obama) favor gay marriage rights and will not defend it for that reason. Others may oppose gay marriage and fear the possibility of a sweeping Supreme Court precedent that will apply everywhere and not appeal adverse lower court decisions that affect only limited areas.

In this situation, where governments take the unusual step of not defending their own laws, there arises a serious question as to whether we should let someone else do it. The House committee is defending DOMA and their standing is being questioned, too. But if the Justice Department won't defend it, and the House can't, and California won't defend Prop 8 and Protect Marriage can't, then we are essentially giving governors, attorneys general and presidents the right to simply ignore laws they don't like or artificially protect laws they don't want tested. Surely, this can't be a desirable situation for the long term, especially if the strategy becomes more common after being employed successfully in these cases. On the other hand, we also don't want to let just anybody who feels like it jump into any case they want.

I could see a rational argument that the House of Representatives could have standing to defend a federal statute while a private special interest group like Protect Marriage would have no standing to defend a law, but then that would get complicated, too, when you have to decide which bodies or agencies of government can act independently of the attorney general or Dept. of Justice to defend a law. If the House can, then the Senate presumably could. If the full House or Senate can, then could a collection of Representatives or Senators who do not have the support of the full body do it?

Like I said, it's a tricky issue.



This post was edited on 3/26 at 4:46 pm


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LSURussian
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re: NBC : SCOTUS not prepared to issue sweeping gay rights ruling


What is wrong with you?





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SlowFlowPro
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re: NBC : SCOTUS not prepared to issue sweeping gay rights ruling


quote:

hen we are essentially giving governors, attorneys general and presidents the right to simply ignore laws they don't like or don't want tested.

i'm curious of whether the ole write of mandamus could be used

it's a fricked up situation where a lowly federal district court could control the law of an entire state, and the state basically could never do anything about the issue, theoretically. that's sticky, too






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Nuts4LSU
LSU Fan
Washington, DC
Member since Oct 2003
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re: NBC : SCOTUS not prepared to issue sweeping gay rights ruling


quote:

If they didnt have standing in the Supreme Court, how would there have been standing in the Ninth Circuit Court? Wouldn't it be thrown out of all federal courts?


The 9th Circuit ruling would be thrown out because Protect Marriage, the entity which circulated the petitions and promoted the referendum vote in favor of Prop 8 and appealed the district court's ruling that threw it out, has no standing. The district court's ruling would remain because the plaintiffs who sued in district court to invalidate the law (the couples who wanted to get married) did have standing. They are directly impacted by the law. If they had lost in the lower courts and then appealed, standing would not be an issue. But since they won, the only ones who appealed were the special interest group that (maybe) does not have standing.



This post was edited on 3/26 at 4:43 pm


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Projectpat
Texas A&M Fan
Houston, TX
Member since Sep 2011
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re: NBC : SCOTUS not prepared to issue sweeping gay rights ruling


quote:

much to the delight of Democrats who see this as a winning issue going forward, and much to the chagrin of the GOP (whether they admit it or not) knowing their party will be accused of intolerance


I thought rights weren't a party issue?






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Nuts4LSU
LSU Fan
Washington, DC
Member since Oct 2003
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re: NBC : SCOTUS not prepared to issue sweeping gay rights ruling


quote:

I thought rights weren't a party issue?


When one party's official national platform takes one side of an issue, and the other party's official national platform takes the other, that pretty much by definition makes it a party issue. While of course not every member of a party will agree with or vote for every plank in its platform, getting something into the official national platform of a party does take fairly broad support for it within that party.






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