U.S. to let spy agencies scour Americans' finances - Page 4 - TigerDroppings.com

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Decatur
USA Fan
Member since Mar 2007
17288 posts

re: U.S. to let spy agencies scour Americans' finances


quote:

According to the laws that founded each of the two(CIA and NSA) they are not supposed to work in the US, that is the FBIs' bailiwick.


Well the intel community already gets access to the info, just currently on a case-by-case basis. So I'm not how sure there are legal issues here (maybe someone could point out something that I'm missing).






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Jake88
George Mason Fan
Member since Apr 2005
7484 posts

re: U.S. to let spy agencies scour Americans' finances


quote:

I'm sure this would be valuable info for the intel agencies to be able to comb through. Privacy interests here could be minimal because the info is already being collected. On the flipside, I'm not sure the FBI can't handle this perfectly fine the way it is currently situated.

This is meh-worthy


You've gone from credible opposing viewpoint to rationalizing lickspittle in a matter of months.






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NC_Tigah
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2003
48367 posts

re: U.S. to let spy agencies scour Americans' finances


quote:

Well the intel community already gets access to the info, just currently on a case-by-case basis. So I'm not how sure there are legal issues here (maybe someone could point out something that I'm missing).
Let me make sure I understand your POV.
You are not sure why there is a problem here because the intel community already gets access to the info, just currently on a case-by-case basis?
Is that what you're saying?






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Decatur
USA Fan
Member since Mar 2007
17288 posts

re: U.S. to let spy agencies scour Americans' finances


I've stated my points several times in this thread

In addition to what you mentioned, I think the usefulness of the proposal might be debatable.

If there a specific legal issue that I'm missing here then someone should bring it up. I'll consider it.






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MStant1
LSU Fan
New York, NY and Houston, TX
Member since Sep 2010
4179 posts

re: U.S. to let spy agencies scour Americans' finances


So to be fair as Decatur has already pointed out this activity by the government has been going on for years. Banks and other financial institutions are required to file Suspicious Activity Reports (SARs) to FinCEN any time they identify suspicious activity within your accounts. The SAR will take an extract of the specific activity or range of activity that they deemed to be suspicious, write a report describing it and file it with FinCEN.

All of this is done without your knowledge as it is illegal to let the customer or anyone who is not privy to the information know about the SAR. So FinCEN doesn't have a database with ALL of your bank activity, but just the specific activity that "deemed" suspicious. The problem is that the laws that define what consists of suspicious activity is very vague so as the article pointed out Banks and FI's have a tendency to over report.

I wasn't aware the FBI had full access to this system to be honest. I was under the impression that all government agencies received information from FinCEN on a case by case basis.

I work as a consultant for large banks and FI's helping them meet the AML and Anti-Terrorist Financing regs under the Bank Secrecy Act and the PATRIOT Act. I can tell you first hand that it is a very unnerving that the banks are required to report information to the government all without a warrant.

Anyone who considers themselves a small government conservative or a progressive who values civil liberties should have an issue with this. It's even more alarming that the CIA wants unfettered access since their jurisdiction is generally foreign espionage rather than domestic.



This post was edited on 3/15 at 8:41 am


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Decatur
USA Fan
Member since Mar 2007
17288 posts

re: U.S. to let spy agencies scour Americans' finances


quote:

Anyone who considers themselves a small government conservative or a progressive who values civil liberties should have an issue with this. It's even more alarming that the CIA wants unfettered access since their jurisdiction is generally foreign espionage rather than domestic.


And as I said earlier..." does the benefit of this change outweigh the privacy concerns?"... this is worthy of debate

Great post






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MStant1
LSU Fan
New York, NY and Houston, TX
Member since Sep 2010
4179 posts

re: U.S. to let spy agencies scour Americans' finances


quote:

does the benefit of this change outweigh the privacy concerns


No. The Bank Secrecy Act and The PATRIOT Act have been largely unsuccessful in prosecuting money launderers and those who commit terrorist financing. Especially when considered in economic terms. The banks and FI's spend a lot of money to try to maintain compliance with the regs with minimal results from the government in prosecuting criminals.

Also the regs are written in a very broad manner that makes it difficult for the Banks and FI's to even meet the regulations. Regulators have a shifting view on what is required to meet the regulations and as such results in banks and FI's being fined for compliance programs that may have been sufficient or at most a minor issue just a couple years ago.


ETA: It should also be noted that most SARs are written for customers who make structured cash transactions. Which is a very unreliable way of trying to find real criminals.



This post was edited on 3/15 at 9:02 am


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Decatur
USA Fan
Member since Mar 2007
17288 posts

re: U.S. to let spy agencies scour Americans' finances


Not that I necessarily agree with you but this seems like a reasonable criticism. It seems though you have problems with this as it is currently situated. Anyway I appreciate this response.





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MStant1
LSU Fan
New York, NY and Houston, TX
Member since Sep 2010
4179 posts

re: U.S. to let spy agencies scour Americans' finances


quote:

Not that I necessarily agree with you but this seems like a reasonable criticism. It seems though you have problems with this as it is currently situated. Anyway I appreciate this response.



I have very conflicting opinions when it comes to the AML and Anti-Terrorist Financing regs. I have my philosophical ones and I have my professional ones.

As a libertarian I am vehemently against the regs due to their invasion on individual rights. As a professional I find the regs to be too vague making it impossible for Banks and FI's to sufficiently comply and making it impossible for law enforcement to receive any meaningful information.






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uway
USA Fan
Member since Sep 2004
17796 posts

re: U.S. to let spy agencies scour Americans' finances


quote:

Obamacare allows the government


People don't remember that the "government" is made up of a bunch of individuals. They wouldn't let their own mother look at their bank statement, but don't mind some anon a-hole (backed up by men in black with rifles) doing it.






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Poodlebrain
LSU Fan
Way Right of Rex
Member since Jan 2004
14405 posts

re: U.S. to let spy agencies scour Americans' finances


quote:

As a professional I find the regs to be too vague making it impossible for Banks and FI's to sufficiently comply and making it impossible for law enforcement to receive any meaningful information.
Imagine the fun this is for casinos? It is quite common for casino customers to make a series of $1,000 buys as they play at high stakes tables. For their good patronage, the casino gets to report them as possible money launderers to the government.






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MStant1
LSU Fan
New York, NY and Houston, TX
Member since Sep 2010
4179 posts

re: U.S. to let spy agencies scour Americans' finances


quote:

Imagine the fun this is for casinos? It is quite common for casino customers to make a series of $1,000 buys as they play at high stakes tables. For their good patronage, the casino gets to report them as possible money launderers to the government.



The Casino wouldn't file a SAR on a high roller for activity that happens during the normal course of a game. In the situation you described they would file a CTR if he broke the $10,000 threshold.

These are the basic SAR requirements for a Casino:

The BSA regulations require a casino to file a Casino SAR (SARC) for any transaction conducted or attempted by, at, or through a casino, and involving or aggregating at least $5,000 in funds or other assets, that the casino knows, suspects, or has reason to suspect:

• involves funds derived from illegal activity or is intended or conducted in order to hide or disguise funds or assets derived from illegal activity (money laundering);
• is designed to evade the reporting or recordkeeping requirements of the BSA (structuring);
• has no business or apparent lawful purpose or is not the sort in which the particular customer would normally be expected to engage, and the casino knows of no reasonable explanation for the transaction after examining the available facts; or
• involves use of the casino to facilitate criminal activity.


That said I can imagine it is a headache trying to distinguish customers acting in a suspicious manner versus customers who are just drunk and gambling.






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drunkenpunkin
LSU Fan
Louisiana
Member since Dec 2011
4713 posts

re: U.S. to let spy agencies scour Americans' finances


I don't know why people are surprised by anything the government does anymore. We live under a distatorship with the illusion of democracy to placate the masses. It may not be totalitarianism because its not one person (though I despise BHO) but the entire government we must now to, but it is a dictatorship. We are told what kind of healthcare we can have, what kind of food our kids can eat, what we should drive, etc. Often despite the protests f the people (ACA). though the "bad" choices are not yet outlawed, they will be one day. The government has complete and total control. There are no more Mr. Smiths in Washington.





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Roaad
LSU Fan
Bushrod Owns
Member since Aug 2006
52218 posts

re: U.S. to let spy agencies scour Americans' finances


quote:

This is meh-worthy
Because it is a Dem in office, you'll justify any gestapo tactic.







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MStant1
LSU Fan
New York, NY and Houston, TX
Member since Sep 2010
4179 posts

re: U.S. to let spy agencies scour Americans' finances


quote:

Because it is a Dem in office, you'll justify any gestapo tactic.



To be fair two of the biggest AML regs have been signed under Republican Presidents. Bank Secrecy Act in 1970 under Nixon and the PATRIOT Act in 2001 under Bush.






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Roaad
LSU Fan
Bushrod Owns
Member since Aug 2006
52218 posts

re: U.S. to let spy agencies scour Americans' finances


quote:

To be fair two of the biggest AML regs have been signed under Republican Presidents. Bank Secrecy Act in 1970 under Nixon and the PATRIOT Act in 2001 under Bush.
And Decatur hated the PA. . .until Obama expanded and renewed it, that is. . .

Remember when Dems were AGAINST warrant-less wiretaps? Why did they shift?

The party of the guy doing shite seems to sanitize all manner of fecal stains to many on this board, irrespective of their political bent. Decatur is one such kid.






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MStant1
LSU Fan
New York, NY and Houston, TX
Member since Sep 2010
4179 posts

re: U.S. to let spy agencies scour Americans' finances


quote:

And Decatur hated the PA. . .until Obama expanded and renewed it, that is. . .

Remember when Dems were AGAINST warrant-less wiretaps? Why did they shift?

The party of the guy doing shite seems to sanitize all manner of fecal stains to many on this board, irrespective of their political bent. Decatur is one such kid.


Same could be said for all of the Republicans who are now suddenly all about civil liberties, when during the Bush admin they were all about wire tapping and the PATRIOT Act.






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