I'm rich and I hoard wealth - Page 64 - TigerDroppings.com

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Powerman
LSU Fan
Corpus Christi, TX
Member since Jan 2004
120338 posts

re: I'm rich and I hoard wealth


quote:



Not trying to antagonize you as I agree with you regarding the processing of data, but lets consider a few situations:

Patients who are malingering or hypochondriacs. They could be well versed with certain symptoms and provide the computer data that could be consistent with the diagnosis of their choosing.


That's a good question

But what if in the future there is a very reliable scientific method to determine whether someone is making shite up or whether they're being truthful. Sure you could say that a hypochondriac doesn't know if they're lying themselves but what if the machine did?

What if using advanced bio sensing methods, you could deduce things about the patient to see if what they were saying was true?

quote:


Patients with psychiatric problems that can for the most part only be diagnosed by gathering subjective data.


It seems that way doesn't it? But what if the data is really objective and it's just far too complicated for humans to comprehend?
quote:

True real life example to demonstrate: the homeless male who presented to the ER during my 3rd year of medical school shortly after the Christmas holidays who was threatening to kill himself.
Issues: the homeless are known to have a higher incidence of mental health disorders, the holidays are notorious for higher rates of suicide.

I walked in and preceded to ask him what his plan was to kill himself. After a few pensive seconds he looked up at me and states that he want to use the oxygen tubing (while pointing across the room to it) to hang himself.

The ER resident I discussed the case with quickly informs me that this was pretty common behavior amongst homeless patients in the winter to punch their ticket for a free meal and night or 2 stay in a warm bed in the hospital.

I am not sure how a computer could reconcile these scenarios better than a human clinically.


Why are you assuming that a machine couldn't consume such info?

All you have to do is tell it.

Not to mention your real life story was rather anti-climatic. I was honestly expecting to hear some story of human triumph where you saved someone's life using your brilliant instinctual skills. Rather the only thing you did was figure out that some homeless guy was trying to get a couple of square meals by acting suicidal.

Yay, you solved nothing other than depriving a homeless guy of some food.
quote:


A more important frontier in my mind is disease prevention by better understanding / manipulation of the human genome. This is a cleaner point to intervene with technology than trying to find and solve problems on the back end in humans.


Right
quote:

If computing power does evolve to the level you describe, they just might come to the conclusion that we are are not worth the effort of helping (ironically in much the same way intellectuals have no real use for God).


At the end of the day they're still machines driven by mathematics and logic.

You can have a machine like Watson that "learns" things but it's unlikely that they'll evolve to the point where they start making their own decisions and claiming we aren't helping.

And if that's the case, you just throw the fricking computer into the volcano thing in mordor and you use the previous version as your consultant.

It isn't rocket surgery






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onmymedicalgrind
New Orleans Saints Fan
its goin' down in that SSB
Member since Dec 2012
4257 posts
 Online 

re: I'm rich and I hoard wealth


quote:

Comparing tech that involves semiconductors and relatively new intellectual algorithms with an industry that is constrained by physical, mechanical and not least of all financial constraints is just flat out fricking stupid.


You brought up cell phones, I brought up cars.

But anyways, so you are saying technology doesn't always progress as fast in all fields due to certain "constraints?" Thank you, I rest my case






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onmymedicalgrind
New Orleans Saints Fan
its goin' down in that SSB
Member since Dec 2012
4257 posts
 Online 

re: I'm rich and I hoard wealth


quote:

But what if in the future there is a very reliable scientific method to determine whether someone is making shite up or whether they're being truthful. Sure you could say that a hypochondriac doesn't know if they're lying themselves but what if the machine did?

What if using advanced bio sensing methods, you could deduce things about the patient to see if what they were saying was true?


And what if you weren't such a simpleton, this thread would be about 2 pages. But you are, and here we go again.






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MrCarton
UNO Fan
Paradise Valley, MT
Member since Dec 2009
2224 posts

re: I'm rich and I hoard wealth


quote:


I only call'em bitches when they ask. And they ask!


Dr. Feel good I presume?

I might need to get licensed






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onmymedicalgrind
New Orleans Saints Fan
its goin' down in that SSB
Member since Dec 2012
4257 posts
 Online 

re: I'm rich and I hoard wealth


quote:

It seems that way doesn't it? But what if the data is really objective and it's just far too complicated for humans to comprehend?


I am sensing a theme here.....






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SmackoverHawg
Arkansas Fan
Member since Oct 2011
13151 posts

re: I'm rich and I hoard wealth


quote:

seems that way doesn't it? But what if the data is really objective and it's just far too complicated for humans to comprehend?


If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts.....






















You'd still be a dumbass!!!






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MDcajuntiger
LSU Fan
Denonvilliers' and parts outlying
Member since Sep 2007
998 posts

re: I'm rich and I hoard wealth


quote:

Yay, you solved nothing other than depriving a homeless guy of some food.


Actually the psych resident admitted him for CYA purposes. You(we) all fed him for a few days.

But that's was not really the point. One could counter that we create a problem by reinforcing and funding this behavior. Guess we should not program politics or evolution into our Dr Killroy (obscure reference...)

quote:

At the end of the day they're still machines driven by mathematics and logic.

If that were the case, a robot physician may have told him to get the frick out and get a job...


To Smackover's point, humans are fickle creatures that sometimes literally just want to interact with another human being who will listen to them. It sounds campy, but it does happen.



This post was edited on 3/1 at 11:07 pm


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Walking the Earth
Member since Feb 2013
3181 posts

re: I'm rich and I hoard wealth


Is there some huge crisis of doctors currently not being able to consistently diagnose patients because they're overwhelmed with information? It seems that, especially in this era of specialization and sub-specialization, that's actually among the least likely of problems.

Isn't a computer just going to play the odds when making a diagnoses, as opposed to just somehow miraculously knowing and being able to apply the entirety of medicine? Isn't that already what a doctor already does, with the difference being that he has experience instead of programming?

And we still haven't gotten a satisfactory workaround to the liability question. Sorry, but "computers won't make mistakes" isn't a leap of faith that even IBM would be willing to make.






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MrCarton
UNO Fan
Paradise Valley, MT
Member since Dec 2009
2224 posts

re: I'm rich and I hoard wealth


quote:

Isn't a computer just going to play the odds when making a diagnoses,


You missed the bio sensing portion, it is about 30 pages back.

quote:

Is there some huge crisis of doctors currently not being able to consistently diagnose patients because they're overwhelmed with information


Not crisis IMO, not certainly there is an issue of creating scientifically viable results.






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MDcajuntiger
LSU Fan
Denonvilliers' and parts outlying
Member since Sep 2007
998 posts

re: I'm rich and I hoard wealth


quote:

Is there some huge crisis of doctors currently not being able to consistently diagnose patients because they're overwhelmed with information? It seems that, especially in this era of specialization and sub-specialization, that's actually among the least likely of problems.


If anything we are being criticized for finding things we couldn't in the past and determining if the treatment/side-effect are worse than the disease and in our current climate is it cost effective

Prostate cancer is an example. It makes counseling my patients extremely challenging.






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austingator
Florida Fan
austin
Member since Jan 2009
5399 posts

re: I'm rich and I hoard wealth


quote:

I don't remember why I originally jumped in this thread. All I know is that there are a lot of terribly naive and technically inept medical "professionals" in here that are probably already inferior to a machine that some nerds that know nothing about medicine programmed.


This is an example of your arrogance and stupidity. You assume and presume about something you have no clue about. I was chief resident. I have a fellowship after my residency. I am the person who looks at cases in my specialty that nobody wants to do because they are hard. I was complimented when I was taking my oral boards on how good I was.

You are still an ignorant fool that resorts to insults when he has been owned. Stop talking about the medical field and docs. Actually try to listen to those who actually know something about it.






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Powerman
LSU Fan
Corpus Christi, TX
Member since Jan 2004
120338 posts

re: I'm rich and I hoard wealth


quote:

This is an example of your arrogance and stupidity.

quote:

I was chief resident. I have a fellowship after my residency. I am the person who looks at cases in my specialty that nobody wants to do because they are hard. I was complimented when I was taking my oral boards on how good I was.

Yeah.

Sounds like I'm the arrogant one.






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Powerman
LSU Fan
Corpus Christi, TX
Member since Jan 2004
120338 posts

re: I'm rich and I hoard wealth


quote:


And we still haven't gotten a satisfactory workaround to the liability question. Sorry, but "computers won't make mistakes" isn't a leap of faith that even IBM would be willing to make.


From what I understand it's possible that the FDA could approve the machine as some sort of diagnosis device thereby shielding facilities from liability issues.

The idea is that the liability will be greatly reduced, not increased.






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SmackoverHawg
Arkansas Fan
Member since Oct 2011
13151 posts

re: I'm rich and I hoard wealth


quote:

I was chief resident. I have a fellowship after my residency. I am the person who looks at cases in my specialty that nobody wants to do because they are hard. I was complimented when I was taking my oral boards on how good I was.



Yeah.

Sounds like I'm the arrogant one.

Arrogance is pretending to know more about the medical field than any of the highly trained medical professionals on here. Even you said your job takes very little skill. Without undergoing the intensive training we have, you cannot have an educated opinion of how easily we could be replaced. It would blow the average persons mind to see the amount of material we had to learn and master in medical school. The gap between med school and college is >>>> than even that between highschool and college.

I'm sure you're very confident in your opinion, but you are arrogant in your ignorance. You don't have a clue.






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Powerman
LSU Fan
Corpus Christi, TX
Member since Jan 2004
120338 posts

re: I'm rich and I hoard wealth


quote:

Arrogance is pretending to know more about the medical field than any of the highly trained medical professionals on here.

I never said that
quote:

Even you said your job takes very little skill.

Didn't say that either

I said that my occupation has been necessarily downsized because computers do a lot of the intense calculations.

quote:

Without undergoing the intensive training we have, you cannot have an educated opinion of how easily we could be replaced.

I didn't say you would be replaced easily.

It is going to take a very impressive amount of progress to replace you. But that doesn't mean it won't happen.
quote:

The gap between med school and college is >>>> than even that between highschool and college.


Right. And the people designing these systems are probably on average substantially more intelligent than your average MD. These are people with masters in computer science and mathematics from places like MIT and Cal Tech. They would make you look like an intellectual midget by any objective measure.






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TheOcean
Florida State Fan
Member since Aug 2004
30543 posts

re: I'm rich and I hoard wealth


quote:

I am the person who looks at cases in my specialty that nobody wants to do because they are hard. I was complimented when I was taking my oral boards on how good I was.








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Powerman
LSU Fan
Corpus Christi, TX
Member since Jan 2004
120338 posts

re: I'm rich and I hoard wealth


The irony is that people that do what he does might be the ones on the chopping block. Because Watson does precisely what he claims to do. And presumably better.





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Powerman
LSU Fan
Corpus Christi, TX
Member since Jan 2004
120338 posts

re: I'm rich and I hoard wealth


quote:

Is there some huge crisis of doctors currently not being able to consistently diagnose patients because they're overwhelmed with information? It seems that, especially in this era of specialization and sub-specialization, that's actually among the least likely of problems.


Across all disciplines 1 in 5 patients are diagnosed incorrectly.

If computers can help get that number to 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 it would be well worth the investment IMO.

And if we can keep it at 1 in 20 with a few less doctors around to lower costs, so be it.






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SmackoverHawg
Arkansas Fan
Member since Oct 2011
13151 posts

re: I'm rich and I hoard wealth


quote:

Right. And the people designing these systems are probably on average substantially more intelligent than your average MD. These are people with masters in computer science and mathematics from places like MIT and Cal Tech. They would make you look like an intellectual midget by any objective measure.

Smarter than the average doc? Probably. Make me look like and intellectual midget? I don't think so. I got early entry into medical school, and then dominated once I got there. All while trying to impregnate half the nursing school, and the hot pharmacy chicks.






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Powerman
LSU Fan
Corpus Christi, TX
Member since Jan 2004
120338 posts

re: I'm rich and I hoard wealth


Good for you. You probably wouldn't make a very good programmer though. You don't have the logical aptitude for it. Maybe you could be trained with time. But the IBM guys would make everyone in this thread look like morons.





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