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supe12sta12z
Tiger Town
Member since Apr 2012
723 posts

re: Poll Has 82% Voting They Would Rather Build Around Irving Instead of Davis

Offensive numbers are sexy. It's never going to change.


Jester
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Feb 2006
17459 posts

re: Poll Has 82% Voting They Would Rather Build Around Irving Instead of Davis
Absolutely. Now for offensive numbers, I'll low ball and say 1 assist = 2 points:

Irving:

23.9 points + 5.5 assists (2 points/assist) = 34.9 points provided
3.5 turnovers

Vasquez:

14 points + 9.4 assist (2 points/assist) = 32.2 points provided
3.3 turnovers

In reality, Vasquez is going to be closer to and possibly equal to Irving in regards to providing offense, because many assists go for 3 points.


lsu480
LSU Fan
Downtown Scottsdale
Member since Oct 2007
82902 posts

re: Poll Has 82% Voting They Would Rather Build Around Irving Instead of Davis
quote:

Wait some people think this isn't obviously Irving?


This!


corndeaux
New Orleans Pelicans Fan
Member since Sep 2009
6499 posts

re: Poll Has 82% Voting They Would Rather Build Around Irving Instead of Davis
Most NBA writers have moved away from AST:TO as a true measure of players because it has no context for player roles. Its still a valuable tool, but perhaps not the most important one

Kyrie basically is a one man team in Cleveland and the only real scoring option they have, so he doesnt pass much. Can he get better at finding the open man/setting teammates up? Absolutely.

His TO rate is actually down this year while USAGE is up. His AST% has dropped too.


supe12sta12z
Tiger Town
Member since Apr 2012
723 posts

re: Poll Has 82% Voting They Would Rather Build Around Irving Instead of Davis
Ofcourse you'd take Irving. He has the sexy offensive numbers. Even then he has too many flaws in his game to be a true franchise player.

1. He's a 1 way player. Doesn't play defense.
2. He doesn't set up his teammates well for a PG.
3. He doesn't control the game unless it through his scoring.

Is Davis a true franchise player? That remains to be seen but I like what I've seen out of his skillset compared to Irving.


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darryljames30
New Orleans Pelicans Fan
New Orleans
Member since Feb 2006
15355 posts

re: Poll Has 82% Voting They Would Rather Build Around Irving Instead of Davis
You have to be kidding me jester.
Put Irving on the court with some of the spot shooters the hornets have and watch the assist sky rocket. The cavs roster is pretty damn shitty.


Jester
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Feb 2006
17459 posts

re: Poll Has 82% Voting They Would Rather Build Around Irving Instead of Davis
quote:

Most NBA writers have moved away from AST:TO as a true measure of players because it has no context for player roles. Its still a valuable tool, but perhaps not the most important one

Kyrie basically is a one man team in Cleveland and the only real scoring option they have, so he doesnt pass much. Can he get better at finding the open man/setting teammates up? Absolutely.

His TO rate is actually down this year while USAGE is up. His AST% has dropped too.


So, his scoring is inflated.... That knife cuts both ways.

It's not like Vasquez is playing with a top team here, either. Much of the year, he has had little to pass to, but he was always above Irving's numbers.

Look, I'm not saying that Vasquez is his equal, but Irving is being over-valued here based on his scoring. The rest of his game does not stand out as elite as of now.


Jester
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Feb 2006
17459 posts

re: Poll Has 82% Voting They Would Rather Build Around Irving Instead of Davis
quote:

Put Irving on the court with some of the spot shooters the hornets have and watch the assist sky rocket. The cavs roster is pretty damn shitty


Yeah....our roster is stacked and injuries have had no effect...


SlowFlowPro
Stanford Fan
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
311178 posts
Online

re: Poll Has 82% Voting They Would Rather Build Around Irving Instead of Davis
quote:

but I have serious questions about such an inefficient point guard leading a team. He shoots well, but does he improve his teammates?


the NBA isn't built for cp3s anymore really

it's all about drivers and the pick and roll. irving may never be on westbrook's level, but that type of point just got his team to the finals last year (and bailed them out in a few games along the way)


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SlowFlowPro
Stanford Fan
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
311178 posts
Online

re: Poll Has 82% Voting They Would Rather Build Around Irving Instead of Davis
quote:

So, his scoring is inflated.... That knife cuts both ways.

i have followed irving very closely b/c i was completely wrong about him coming out (so i could try to learn what i got wrong)

he's shooting 47.3% from the field and 42.7% from 3

his TS% is 57.4%, which is really good for a point guard and amazing for a 20 year old guard

he's really good at dribbling and really good at shooting. those things are going to allow you to score a ton

quote:

but Irving is being over-valued here based on his scoring. The rest of his game does not stand out as elite as of now.

i agree somewhat, but his shooting, for a 20 year old, is amazing. how many 20 year old guards have shot that well in the NBA in the past 20 years?


hendersonshands
LA-Lafayette Fan
Univ. of Louisiana Ragin Cajuns
Member since Oct 2007
125710 posts

re: Poll Has 82% Voting They Would Rather Build Around Irving Instead of Davis
Irving is an amazing player but you don't need an elite point guard to win titles. An elite big man wins championships unless you're the Heat.


SlowFlowPro
Stanford Fan
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
311178 posts
Online

re: Poll Has 82% Voting They Would Rather Build Around Irving Instead of Davis
oh i pick davis, i'm just defending kyrie. he's a lot better than this thread is giving him credit as being

quote:

but you don't need an elite point guard to win titles. An elite big man wins championships unless you're the Heat.

they have bosh

you need an elite scorer (typically a driver) and some defensive bigs


hendersonshands
LA-Lafayette Fan
Univ. of Louisiana Ragin Cajuns
Member since Oct 2007
125710 posts

re: Poll Has 82% Voting They Would Rather Build Around Irving Instead of Davis
I always forget about Bosh.




quote:

you need an elite scorer (typically a driver) and some defensive bigs



which is the reason the Hornets want to build around Davis and Gordon. The problem is that if we don't see any improvement next year, then people start to get tired of waiting.


SlowFlowPro
Stanford Fan
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
311178 posts
Online

re: Poll Has 82% Voting They Would Rather Build Around Irving Instead of Davis
well davis is a rookie, and he's going to need to make a jump next year. gordon needs to stay healthy

lopez has been going balls out lately.

we need another perimeter driver-scorer though


hendersonshands
LA-Lafayette Fan
Univ. of Louisiana Ragin Cajuns
Member since Oct 2007
125710 posts

re: Poll Has 82% Voting They Would Rather Build Around Irving Instead of Davis
Lopez rebounds like his pussy arse brother. That's fine I guess if Davis rebounds and if Aminu is on the team because he can be an elite rebounder.

I think the idea of needing another driver-scorer is why we drafted Austin Rivers. He's been god awful at finishing but he actually gets the rim really well.



Next year, Davis's MPG should jump to over 30.


fightingtigers98
New Orleans Pelicans Fan
Member since Oct 2011
10303 posts

re: Poll Has 82% Voting They Would Rather Build Around Irving Instead of Davis
quote:

lopez has been going balls out lately.

i can see them trading him away.


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SlowFlowPro
Stanford Fan
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
311178 posts
Online

re: Poll Has 82% Voting They Would Rather Build Around Irving Instead of Davis
quote:

Lopez rebounds like his pussy arse brother. That's fine I guess if Davis rebounds and if Aminu is on the team because he can be an elite rebounder.

i think davis needs to make up for this and hit the boards for an 11-12 rpg clip next year


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danman6336
Duke Fan
Member since Jan 2005
18284 posts

re: Poll Has 82% Voting They Would Rather Build Around Irving Instead of Davis
This thread is hilarious

I mean Jester is in here trying to make the argument that Vasquez is comparable to Irving, and it is unthinkable that someone would take a guy that is in the top 5 in the league in scoring at 20 years old over someone who has so far put up nothing but very average PF numbers.

Irving is a top 5 PG in the entire league in his second season

No shite you take him over Davis
This post was edited on 2/12 at 12:33 pm


SlowFlowPro
Stanford Fan
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
311178 posts
Online

re: Poll Has 82% Voting They Would Rather Build Around Irving Instead of Davis
quote:

No shite you take him over Davis

let's wait until AD plays half of his 2nd year before we start comparing the 2

if AD hasn't made significant progress, and irving doesn't fall off (which is unlikely), then we can have the discussion


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hendersonshands
LA-Lafayette Fan
Univ. of Louisiana Ragin Cajuns
Member since Oct 2007
125710 posts

re: Poll Has 82% Voting They Would Rather Build Around Irving Instead of Davis
Interesting stats. Lopez has a PER of 20.67 this year. 6th best in the NBA for centers. Anthony Davis is at 20.17, 7th in the NBA for power forwards; Ryan Anderson is 11th at 19.47.



Everyone tries to act like Rivers is showing no improvement but so far in February (6 games), he's averaging 22 minutes and shooting 46.9%. It's a small sample size but he's starting to finish better. He's only averaging about 6 ppg for the month but if he wasn't so god damn bad at free throws, it'd be up around 7. If we can get some efficient play from him for the rest of the year, I'll be confident in him going into the offseason.


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