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Navytiger74
LSU Fan
Washington, DC
Member since Oct 2009
11945 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

Where in this POS white paper does it spell out who has the authority to deem an American citizen as worthy of death?


The paper doesn't spell it out precisely (alludes to senior officials). At the risk of seeming obtuse, I have to ask why that matters. The president has ultimate authority and responsibility for these types of actions. Why do you care what senior official below him (and his advisors and analysts)deemed the available intelligence credible and conclusive before passing up the recommendation. Would you feel better if it were a judge or 12 laymen? A military tribunal? Any group? This isn't a criminal proceeding (I guess that's kind of the point of the objection, though, right). It simply isn't practical to afford that to an individual embedded inside a foreign terrorist organization.



This post was edited on 2/8 at 8:22 am


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Jbird
Iowa Fan
In Odramaville with EthanL
Member since Oct 2012
13843 posts
 Online 

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

The paper doesn't. At the risk of seeming obtuse, I have to ask why that matters. The president has ultimate authority and responsibility for these types of actions. Why do you care what senior official below him (and his advisors and analysts)deemed the available intelligence credible and conclusive before passing up the recommendation.


So you are in favor of political apointees determining if citizen's live or die. I guess you have never seen credible actionable intelligence that was faulty.









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texashorn
Member since May 2008
1451 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


Anybody remember this movie (based on an English court of the same name)?



An elite few who decide life or death using extralegal means, shrouded in secrecy? Nothing to see here, run along...






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Navytiger74
LSU Fan
Washington, DC
Member since Oct 2009
11945 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

So you are in favor of political apointees determining if citizen's live or die. I guess you have never seen credible actionable intelligence that was faulty.


Listen. I've strayed away from my central point. The fact is that these citizens are being identified as active hostiles by a fairly rigorus process. How do we know? We use our five senses. If we still fought by lining up across the field from one another, I'd know that one of my own had gone over when I saw him marching under the other side's colors, or working on plans in their tents, or pointing his weapon at me. At that point, I could shoot his ass. It works the same way here. The government has the right to target active hostiles operating as a part of a hostile foreign force. It's as simple as that.






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Lsut81
USA Fan
Member since Jun 2005
61464 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

Listen. I've strayed away from my central point. The fact is that these citizens are being identified as active hostiles by a fairly rigorus process. How do we know? We use our five senses


I'm glad that we are relying on someone in Washington with an agenda to determine whether an American Citizen should be killed or not






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Navytiger74
LSU Fan
Washington, DC
Member since Oct 2009
11945 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

So you are in favor of political apointees determining if citizen's live or die.


You're drawing a fairly arbitrary line here. Political appointees determine if lots of people live or die--and how, and when. Elected judges do as well--and ordinary bone-ignorant citizens. Our target nomination and validation process isn't a trial, but it is a very rigorous process headed up by people who do nothing else for a living. If there was a way to get these bastards to trial and put their shame on display, I'm sure everyone who supports this policy would be all for it. But generally left with the options to (1) do nothing, or (2) justifiably treat them as enemy combatants, embedded with the enemy in foreign lands, and operating on his behalf, it's not that difficult a call.






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UncleFestersLegs
Columbia MO
Member since Nov 2010
977 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

It simply isn't practical to afford that to an individual embedded inside a foreign terrorist organization.


Interesting that this memo claims the US intervention in Cambodia as legal precedent for drone strikes in countries beyond those where we are engaged in hostilities.

The bottom line is, no matter how many bull shite memos the DOJ vomits up, there is absolutely no legal justification for assassinations where there is no imminent threat.






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Roaad
LSU Fan
Bushrod Owns
Member since Aug 2006
52218 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

Would you like to actually discuss your objections to the policy?
The 5th Amendent
quote:

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
The NDAA allows for killing US citizens based on "reasoable suspicion" based on the criteria established within the sitting President's own head. It is really that broad.






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Roaad
LSU Fan
Bushrod Owns
Member since Aug 2006
52218 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

If there was a way to get these bastards to trial and put their shame on display, I'm sure everyone who supports this policy would be all for it.
Should our police operate under the same policy?

If it is hard to bring them into trial, bomb their suspected location?




This post was edited on 2/8 at 8:43 am


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SlowFlowPro
Stanford Fan
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
286850 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

Proof positive that your average partisan American doesn't give a shite about what the government does as long as "their side" is doing it.

which is why the original Tea Party movement was something to be celebrated






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Navytiger74
LSU Fan
Washington, DC
Member since Oct 2009
11945 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

I'm glad that we are relying on someone in Washington with an agenda to determine whether an American Citizen should be killed or not


What agenda is that? And, for the 50th time, this isn't someone slapdick in Washington randomy pulling shite out of a hat. This is a military and foreign intelligence "problem" from cradle to grave. Our elected leaders ultimately push the button because that's the way shite works in a free, civil society.






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Jbird
Iowa Fan
In Odramaville with EthanL
Member since Oct 2012
13843 posts
 Online 

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

The fact is that these citizens are being identified as active hostiles by a fairly rigorus process.


Do you have a link to this process?

Does that include the 16 year old son of a suspected terrorist?






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Roaad
LSU Fan
Bushrod Owns
Member since Aug 2006
52218 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

which is why the original Tea Party movement was something to be celebrated
The left is as responsible for the Tea Party becoming a wing of the GOP as anyone.







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Navytiger74
LSU Fan
Washington, DC
Member since Oct 2009
11945 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

If it is hard to bring them into trial, bomb their suspected location?


Apples and tampons. As I said, this isn't a criminal proceeding. It's military action against hostile forces outside the reach of our civil authorities and legal processes.






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CptBengal
USA Fan
BR Baby
Member since Dec 2007
35848 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

this isn't someone slapdick in Washington randomy pulling shite out of a hat. This is a military and foreign intelligence "problem" from cradle to grave. Our elected leaders ultimately push the button because that's the way shite works in a free, civil society.



tell me where in there they have their constitutional right to defend themselves?

or is that document just an impediment to you?






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Roaad
LSU Fan
Bushrod Owns
Member since Aug 2006
52218 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

Apples and tampons.
The frick?

This is what I hate about this board. You just make dismissals of relevant analogies, because you don't like how accurate it is. . .

quote:

As I said, this isn't a criminal proceeding.
So Americans are being denied due process. . .by your admission.

And that is just peachy to you?



This post was edited on 2/8 at 8:50 am


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Navytiger74
LSU Fan
Washington, DC
Member since Oct 2009
11945 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

Do you have a link to this process?


Do you think I have a link that I can share with you? ETA: Just realized that JP 3-60 is available online. It's doctrine on Joint Targeting.

quote:

Does that include the 16 year old son of a suspected terrorist?


We bust our asses to limit and minimize collateral damage. There's never an excuse for it. It just happens.



This post was edited on 2/8 at 8:55 am


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SlowFlowPro
Stanford Fan
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
286850 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

So Americans are being denied due process. . .by your admission.

And that is just peachy to you?

let's just put this in real terms

would you be OK with this policy if michelle bachmann was president? rick santorum? pat robertson? david duke?






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Roaad
LSU Fan
Bushrod Owns
Member since Aug 2006
52218 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

Do you think I have a link that I can share with you?
There is no link, because there is no process.
quote:

We bust our asses to limit and minimize collateral damage.
You mean "killing innocent people".






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CptBengal
USA Fan
BR Baby
Member since Dec 2007
35848 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

outside the reach of our civil authorities and legal processes.


interdasting.

so citizens lose their constitutional rights when out of the country?

You do know you can be tried for treason in abstention, right? How is them not even there outside the legal framework?






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