78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens - Page 2 - TigerDroppings.com

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Mike da Tigah
St. Denham Rougeville
Member since Feb 2005
39896 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


So, 78% of these people are okay with no trial by a jury of their peers, just go ahead and wax them?


Yep. I was right. I really don't know who these people are or what they did with the Americans I thought I knew.






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Lsut81
USA Fan
Member since Jun 2005
61529 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

Would you like to actually discuss your objections to the policy?


Trial without jury...
Govt Official as Judge, Jury, Executioner...
Slippery Slope...






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JEAUXBLEAUX
LSU Fan
Bayonne, NJ
Member since May 2006
43688 posts
 Online 

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


Americans overseas working with Al Qaeda bye bye count me as a 78% person





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Lsut81
USA Fan
Member since Jun 2005
61529 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

Americans overseas working with Al Qaeda bye bye count me as a 78% person



Wouldn't expect anything less from a moron like yourself...








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BeeFense5
New Orleans Pelicans Fan
Kenna
Member since Jul 2010
17008 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

JEAUXBLEAUX


I don't think I have ever come across another person like you that not only has extremely shitty political views but even worse understanding and reasoning behind those beliefs.

It's truly amazing.






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Navytiger74
LSU Fan
Washington, DC
Member since Oct 2009
11948 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

Trial without jury... Govt Official as Judge, Jury, Executioner... Slippery Slope...




Let's rehash the main points of that paper, since all of you seem acquainted only with the media's sensationalism.

Targeting criteria:

Who: Senior operational leaders of Al-Qaida and associated terrorist organizations (not branch dividians, the NRA, or any other bull shite you may have heard)

Where: In foreign countries (not the US or its territories, in spite of any other bull shite you may have heard)

When: When our vast intelligence network identifies them as currently "active" in planning, facilitating, or executing attacks on US and coalition forces

Why: 1. Because issuing a warrant for their arrest and asking them to report to a federal courthouse by 3:00pm is not feasible. 2. Because sending a team of US Marshals or FBI agents in to get them is neither feasible nor legal. 3. Because relying upon "partners and allies" to arrest and extradite is not always feasible (such as in the case of the most famous and wanted terrorist in the world living down the street from a military base in Pakistan.

A couple of days ago I told Bengal that "we can play slippery slope, connect the dots, or what comes next all day, but the fact remains that a government treating citizens who operate as a part of a foreign hostile force as belligerents is neither new nor especially noteworthy.

I'll stand by that.






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Navytiger74
LSU Fan
Washington, DC
Member since Oct 2009
11948 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

The government starting a campaign against illegal substances =/= the government trying to tell you what you can feed your kids. There's a big difference.


So the government actually passing laws (with severe penalties) dictating what an adult can put into his body is somehow less intrusive than the government laying down guidelines for what a child should put into his body.

And before you get on a kick about how terrible drugs are (and I believe they are terrible) I'd like to remind you that the morbidity associated with obesity (heart disease, hypertension, diabetes, etc) far outstrips that of every drug combined--including widely used drugs like nicotine and alcohol.

Kids coming up today are in much greater need of a campaign telling them to get off their fat asses and stop pounding soda than kids my age ever needed a campaign telling us not to shoot smack.



This post was edited on 2/8 at 7:32 am


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trackfan
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2010
15428 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


What bothers me isn't the fact that we're using drones to kill, because dead is dead and the instrument of death is irrelevant. Killing American citizens in a war zone doesn't bother me either since I don't believe that a person's citizenship should protect him after he has joined an enemy of the U.S. at war time. What bothers me is assassinating people of any nationality in nations that we aren't at war with. The way I always determine if something is right or wrong is to put the shoe on the other foot. For example, would you be okay with the Pakistani or Yemeni governments hunting down and assassinating folks in the U.S. who those nations viewed as enemies of their respective states, some of whom might be American citizens? Or would we view this as an act of war by those countries?





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Lsut81
USA Fan
Member since Jun 2005
61529 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

Who: Senior operational leaders of Al-Qaida and associated terrorist organizations


Who determines who is an operational leader and who is an associated terrorist organization?

Oh Yeah, the administration... No Judge or Jury

quote:

Where: In foreign countries (not the US or its territories, in spite of any other bull shite you may have heard)


What stops them from tweaking it and claiming that a "Group" on American soil is cleared.... NOTHING

quote:

I'll stand by that.


Of course you will and I'm sure if it was a Republican administration, you would be flipping your shite.

I'm all for killing an individual if they are in direct combat with American Soldiers... But if they are not, they are American citizens and deserve to be proven guilty of terrorism by a jury of their peers.






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Navytiger74
LSU Fan
Washington, DC
Member since Oct 2009
11948 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

What bothers me isn't the fact that we're using drones to kill, because dead is dead and the instrument of death is irrelevant. Killing American citizens in a war zone doesn't bother me either since I don't believe that a person's citizenship should protect him after he has joined an enemy of the U.S. at war time. What bothers me is assassinating people of any nationality in nations that we aren't at war with. The way I always determine if something is right or wrong is to put the shoe on the other foot. For example, would you be okay with the Pakistani or Yemeni governments hunting down and assassinating folks in the U.S. who those nations viewed as enemies of their respective states, some of whom might be American citizens? Or would we view this as an act of war by those countries?


Track, we don't agree on Israel too often, but I generally respect your views. The fact is that the enemy that our current enemy is largely stateless. We can't declare them "hands off" because the countries that harbor them are unwilling or unable to address the problem. This will inevitably lead to a broader discussion of US foreign policy in the ME, but the fact remains that as long as we are there (or have interests there) there will be people trying to harm us. If we have the means to get them first, I say let her rip.






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TenTex
LSU Fan
Member since Jan 2008
14263 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


Who is Ed Shulz?





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Navytiger74
LSU Fan
Washington, DC
Member since Oct 2009
11948 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

Who determines who is an operational leader and who is an associated terrorist organization? Oh Yeah, the administration... No Judge or Jury


So, as I mockingly asked a couple of days ago, you think some a-hole in Washington is sitting at his desk "randomly determining" that people are Operational leaders in Al-Qaida? Is he going through a fricking Pakistani phone book and picking out names? No, the same intelligence process that identified Bin Ladin and every other Jihadist identifies these operational leaders.

quote:

What stops them from tweaking it and claiming that a "Group" on American soil is cleared.... NOTHING


If a terrorist organization is operating domestically, it'll be handled by domestic authorities (domestic intelligence agencies and law enforcement). Barring a breakdown in Civil order and specific congresional authorization, we have this thing called the Posse Comitatus Act.

quote:

Of course you will and I'm sure if it was a Republican administration, you would be flipping your shite.


I'm sure you don't know dick. I don't undergo a fundamental shift in views depending upon who's in office.

On the other hand, I've never known southern boys to be so opposed to the use of force prior to 2009--oh, except when Clinton intervened in the Balkans. That was a big deal. And Libya.
Land war in Iraq--not so much.



This post was edited on 2/8 at 7:52 am


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Jbird
Iowa Fan
In Odramaville with EthanL
Member since Oct 2012
13882 posts
 Online 

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

No, the same intelligence process that identified Bin Ladin and every other Jihadist identifies these operational leaders.


The same type of intel that has a USAF officer on a no fly list? No fricking thanks.


quote:

If a terrorist organization is operating domestically, it'll be handled by domestic authorities (domestic intelligence agencies and law enforcement). Barring a breakdown in Civil order and specific congresional authorization, we have this thing called the Posse Comitatus Act.


Again suspension of said act isn't a big deal to some people.






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trackfan
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2010
15428 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

Who: Senior operational leaders of Al-Qaida and associated terrorist organizations

How do you determine if someone is a senior operational leader in Al Qaeda? What qualifies as an associated terrorist organization?
quote:

When: When our vast intelligence network identifies them as currently "active" in planning, facilitating, or executing attacks on US and coalition forces

Who gets to determine whether a person has crossed the threashhold of planning, facilitating or executing attacks? Does a person have to be on his way to the Islamabad airport with a bomb or can it be two guys on the street corner in Pakistan ruminating about attacking the U.S.?

quote:

Why: 3. Because relying upon "partners and allies" to arrest and extradite is not always feasible (such as in the case of the most famous and wanted terrorist in the world living down the street from a military base in Pakistan

I think it's overly presumptuous to assume that the same government that handed over Khalid Sheik Muhammad wouldn't have handed over Osama Bin Laden, and I'm pretty certain that Bin Laden wasn't being protected by the upper echelons of the Pakistani military and government, because there's no way something like that could have been kept a secret for long if a lot of people knew. Personally, I think Obama was reckless when he ordered the Bin Laden raid because our intelligence never ID'ed Bin Laden with certainty before the raid, it only had a hunch, a la W's WMD in Iraq hunch. Also, it's very likely that the head of the Pakistani military didn't know where Bin Laden was and would have handed him over to us if we had shared our intelligence with him.






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VOR
New Orleans Pelicans Fan
New Orleans
Member since Apr 2009
39547 posts
 Online 

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

Proof positive that your average partisan American doesn't give a shite about what the government does as long as "their side" is doing it.



quote:

The left would be losing its shite if Obama were a Republican. Likewise, most on this board would be oddly silent. Guys like McCain and Graham are war hawks, but at least they're consistent.


This. I don't have a problem with targeting known traitors and enemies of the U.S. plotting attacks, even if they happen to be citizens, as long as there is oversight and control. I would feel the same regardless of which party is in power as long as there is no evidence of a lack of said oversight and control. Frankly, if people don't think the U.S. has done this for years in other contexts, they're kidding themselves.








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Navytiger74
LSU Fan
Washington, DC
Member since Oct 2009
11948 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

The same type of intel that has a USAF officer on a no fly list? No fricking thanks.


Good thing our criminal justice system has never fricked anything up. Otherwise, your point might seem a little weak.

quote:

Again suspension of said act isn't a big deal to some people.


What people? I've never known you to wander off into tin-foil territory. If, as you guys claim, we are to have absolutely no faith in the prudence or respect for law of our elected leaders, someone should start a petition ASAP to strip them of the power to start Nuclear fricking wars.






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Jbird
Iowa Fan
In Odramaville with EthanL
Member since Oct 2012
13882 posts
 Online 

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

If, as you guys claim, we are to have absolutely no faith in the prudence or respect for law of our elected leaders, someone should start a petition ASAP to strip them of the power to start Nuclear fricking wars.


Where in this POS white paper does it spell out who has the authority to deem an American citizen as worthy of death?







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Navytiger74
LSU Fan
Washington, DC
Member since Oct 2009
11948 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

How do you determine if someone is a senior operational leader in Al Qaeda? What qualifies as an associated terrorist organization?


The same way a jury might determine guilt or innocence--weighing facts against criteria. Believe it or not, we often have much more concrete information available to us in these matters than a civil court would. Fewer rules. And an associated organization is exactly what the term implies. No smoke and mirrors there.

quote:

Who gets to determine whether a person has crossed the threashhold of planning, facilitating or executing attacks? Does a person have to be on his way to the Islamabad airport with a bomb or can it be two guys on the street corner in Pakistan ruminating about attacking the U.S.?


The same people who make other life and death decisions concerning every other suspected enemy operative.

quote:

I think it's overly presumptuous to assume that the same government that handed over Khalid Sheik Muhammad wouldn't have handed over Osama Bin Laden, and I'm pretty certain that Bin Laden wasn't being protected by the upper echelons of the Pakistani military and government, because there's no way something like that could have been kept a secret for long if a lot of people knew. Personally, I think Obama was reckless when he ordered the Bin Laden raid because our intelligence never ID'ed Bin Laden with certainty before the raid, it only had a hunch, a la W's WMD in Iraq hunch. Also, it's very likely that the head of the Pakistani military didn't know where Bin Laden was and would have handed him over to us if we had shared our intelligence with him.


I don't think your points are ridiculous, but I do think you assume quite a bit here. Let's just agree that the Pakistanis were incompetent in the matter--at best.






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UncleFestersLegs
Columbia MO
Member since Nov 2010
985 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

Where in this POS white paper does it spell out who has the authority to deem an American citizen as worthy of death?


quote:

“informed, high-level” official of the U.S. government may determine that the targeted American has been “recently” involved in “activities” posing a threat of a violent attack and “there is no evidence suggesting that he has renounced or abandoned such activities.” The memo does not define “recently” or “activities.”

quote:

“The condition that an operational leader present an ‘imminent’ threat of violent attack against the United States does not require the United States to have clear evidence that a specific attack on U.S. persons and interests will take place in the immediate future,” the memo states.

LINK

Nothing to see here little citizen. As I have learned in this thread, the good guys are in charge now so all is well.






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CptBengal
USA Fan
BR Baby
Member since Dec 2007
35898 posts

re: 78% of Ed Shulz's viewers support targeted assassinations of American citizens


quote:

Good thing our criminal justice system has never fricked anything up.
at least in the criminal justice system you have a CHANCE to defend yourself.

No such chance for these 'suspects" here...

quote:

I've never known you to wander off into tin-foil territory.


Because violation of the Constitutional rights of citizens is "tin-foil hat territory"....wow.






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