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| Posted by | Message | EthanL 
LSU Fan
Harvey LA
Member since Oct 2011
2196 posts
| The sobering truth about 'Gun Rights'...ultimately (Posted on 1/19/13 at 7:46 am)
Let me explain my position on guns: I don't have any, I guess I am taking chances with my life and my family's. I think I've reduced my chances of getting shot as a young black man by the company I choose, and the area in which I live. But who knows. I could become another statistic involving a random act of violence at any moment.
I understand the measured, educated responses from the Right about gun rights, what the numbers show, etc. Some of the French guy's proposals last month even made sense to me.
But come to grips with me on a few things folks. I work in Alabama, and I hear people talk about the 'thrill' they get from shooting a gun. When you go to the shooting range, do you shoot at a target with the shape of a human being, or a deer? I heard one of my employees say, "they will need an army to come get all 37 of my guns."
It seems, inadvertently, some of us have already prepared for this moment. Maybe that is why 'mass shootings' are happening more often. Is it safe to say that there are 'gun-lovers' out there, who are waiting for something to happen as they buy guns. Some of them are having issues, the 'gun apocalypse' has not happened, and so they start one, because there is nowhere to go with 'it.'
Ok. I said there was a sobering part to this, that right-minded gun advocates may appreciate: You, along with the often hapless NRA, are actually sharing a platform with these people. I heard someone say the other day, 'the most noble thing we can do is argue the rights of people we don't agree with', ergo the Westboro church that pickets/protests at a fallen soldiers funeral; or the Casey Anthony's, the O.J. Simpsons, and the many others who flexed their 'rights' to get away with crimes perpetrated.
So the question is: How much longer do we stomach, tolerate, and put up with a broken system, and dogmatically champion everyone's rights before we come to grips that everything, needs to be balanced, and reviewed from time to time?
In short, for those of you tl;dr, when does the 2nd not apply? Hand-held nuclear laser vaporizers?
| | Back to top | Share on  | Meauxjeaux 
Memphis Fan
I have 91k posts with all my alters
Member since Jun 2005
12984 posts
| re: The sobering truth about 'Gun Rights'...ultimately (Posted on 1/19/13 at 7:50 am to EthanL)
quote:
But come to grips with me on a few things folks. I work in Alabama, and I hear people talk about the 'thrill' they get from shooting a gun. When you go to the shooting range, do you shoot at a target with the shape of a human being, or a deer? I heard one of my employees say, "they will need an army to come get all 37 of my guns."
When target practicing, it usually is a paper full of circles.
Or you can get the "zombie targets". With a zombie holding a human girl hostage and blow his head off.
Or the standard siloutte that is used for self defense practice...to put a number of rounds into the center mass of a human ATTACKER.
The idea of getting a "thrill" at shooting normal people is a sick offering of those pushing gun bans.
THAT is a sobering truth.
| | Back to top | | MrCarton 
Alabama Fan
Nashville
Member since Dec 2009
1643 posts
| re: The sobering truth about 'Gun Rights'...ultimately (Posted on 1/19/13 at 7:59 am to EthanL)
quote:
n short, for those of you tl;dr, when does the 2nd not apply? Hand-held nuclear laser vaporizers
It applies so far as to allow the special tax free, exemption free, production, distribution, and free use of arms that could reasonably be maintained and operated by a militia of the American people.
As I have said before: If you want to understand the second amendment study the militia movements across the world.
| | Back to top | | VOR 
New Orleans Saints Fan
New Orleans
Member since Apr 2009
33010 posts
 Online
| re: The sobering truth about 'Gun Rights'...ultimately (Posted on 1/19/13 at 8:02 am to MrCarton)
quote:
As I have said before: If you want to understand the second amendment study the militia movements across the world.
Not what the framers really had in mind, but I'm not going to get into an argument that's been repeated ad nauseum on the board.
| | Back to top | | TrueTiger
LSU Fan
Republic of West Florida
Member since Sep 2004
2532 posts
| re: The sobering truth about 'Gun Rights'...ultimately (Posted on 1/19/13 at 8:04 am to EthanL)
quote:
when does the 2nd not apply? Hand-held nuclear laser vaporizers?
We don't know where technology will bring us. We could get to where firearms, or future energy beam weapons are all obsolete like the sword and pike today.
We could get to the point where we only send our robots out to work and shop and people are not out in the street at all.
Then the argument might be about how big and powerful our defense bots can be.
The means will change over time, but concept of "self defense" is the heart of it and will always remain. The answer tends to be that whatever technology that puts you roughly on par with anyone who intends you harm, that is man portable, generally available and relatively affordable, is what should be available for your use.
quote:
Hand-held nuclear laser vaporizers?
Let's put it this way, if these were to become a reality and commonly available and most of the bad-guys of the future were running around with them, you would be a fool not to have one of your own.
This post was edited on 1/19 at 8:32 am
| | Back to top | | UFownstSECsince1950 
Florida Fan
Member since Dec 2009
23071 posts
| re: The sobering truth about 'Gun Rights'...ultimately (Posted on 1/19/13 at 8:10 am to EthanL)
Sorry, but the only thing I got out of your post was that you're the first black person named Ethan I have ever come across.
| | Back to top | | thedogman
New Orleans Saints Fan
Member since Dec 2008
1190 posts
| re: The sobering truth about 'Gun Rights'...ultimately (Posted on 1/19/13 at 8:12 am to EthanL)
quote:
Hand-held nuclear laser vaporizers
Is anyone lobbying for this??
| | Back to top | | Ace Midnight
LSU Fan
Ball, LA - Home, Sweet Home
Member since Dec 2006
14870 posts
| re: The sobering truth about 'Gun Rights'...ultimately (Posted on 1/19/13 at 8:19 am to EthanL)
quote:
Let me explain my position on guns: I don't have any, I guess I am taking chances with my life and my family's. I think I've reduced my chances of getting shot as a young black man by the company I choose, and the area in which I live. But who knows. I could become another statistic involving a random act of violence at any moment.
Ethan - I've called you an incorrigible troll (as recently as the past couple of days) - I'm rethinking that. You're young, and with youth comes this bubbling optimism in the area of problem solving. I like the thought provoking background you put into some of these, and I'm starting to detach you from the a wants and Rexes of the world.
It would be awesome if we lived in a world where you being a young black man is no longer an issue. Likewise, it would be wonderful if nobody required guns, ever.
quote:
In short, for those of you tl;dr, when does the 2nd not apply? Hand-held nuclear laser vaporizers?
This is the kind of stuff where you lose me - when does the 1st no longer apply, or the 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc. - these are natural rights that predate the constitution - they exist through the operation of natural law and are only codified and reinforced in the Bill of Rights. ALL rights are subject to reasonable restriction. The right to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater is the classic example of where speech can reasonably be restricted - how that somehow evolved to no one can say anything offensive to anyone ever, except towards white Christian males (and yeah, I can see where we've had that coming, but it doesn't make it right), is beyond me. When people lose the right to say offensive things, communication ends and all you get is hollow politically-correct tripe, in my opinion.
Nuclear weapons and explosives are categories of destructive devices that are not properly designated as "arms". Arms are classically the weapon of the common foot soldier. I personally believe that semi-automatic rifles, the AR-15 in particular, is the perfect examplar of that concept - if you go to basic military training for any of our services, whether you do an initial active stint, or serve in the reserves or national guard, you will be taught the proper use and maintenance of the weapon (I was, anyway).
quote:
You, along with the often hapless NRA, are actually sharing a platform with these people.
That's ALWAYS going to be the case. For every reasonable conservationist, there are organizations like PETA and Earth First. For every 1st Amendment advocate, there are crazy ACLU cases that don't make sense. For every Seventh Day Adventist, there is a guy like David Koresh. For every person suggesting we shouldn't use the n-word, there are advocates who suggest calling POTUS "liberal" is a racist code word. This does not invalidate the core of the reasonable person's position.
Reasonable restrictions on the 2nd Amendment cannot mean that nobody can keep or bear "arms".
quote:
When you go to the shooting range, do you shoot at a target with the shape of a human being, or a deer?
Those aren't the only choices, you know? You can get circles, birds, just a whole range of things at which to shoot. I select human sillhouettes because my arms are for self-defense. Your question belies the fact that you falsely believe that the 2nd Amendment has something, anything, to do with hunting or recreational shooting. It does not. It is, to quote Ice-T, "...the last line of defense against tyranny. To protect us from the police." What is implied there is that this will only occur if necessary.
I love law enforcement, but I can't vouch for 100% of them. I am not in favor of being disarmed, for any reason, for any length of time, because I know how that music ends - it ends with me having no chair.
Good luck with it, man. Many young people are idealistic, like yourself. My position on arms remains - having the power to effect change, if necessary, is far more comforting than being helpless and at the mercy of others or the authorities. Imagine the thought of having 2 or more attackers pounding at your door, straining at the locks, wood and metal, hearing the screams of your family as you calmly call 911, then feeling the calm leave as the operator tells you the officers have been dispatched and will be there in approximately 4 minutes and you look at your watch as the longest 4 minutes of your life begin.
NOW, imagine, instead, you're well armed and prepared. The call goes a little differently, "Hello, this is Ethan L at 123 Pine Street. We've had an incident. A couple of guys tried to break in. I shot them. One is still just inside the front door, the other stumbled north towards Oak Street, but we can't see him anymore. Please send someone. Thank you."
This post was edited on 1/19 at 8:59 am
| | Back to top | | GoT1de
Alabama Fan
Alabama
Member since Aug 2009
432 posts
| re: The sobering truth about 'Gun Rights'...ultimately (Posted on 1/19/13 at 8:27 am to EthanL)
Its the criminals fault.
If you think laws will stop crime, then make crime illegal.
| | Back to top | | Powerman
LSU Fan
Corpus Christi, TX
Member since Jan 2004
115655 posts
Online
| re: The sobering truth about 'Gun Rights'...ultimately (Posted on 1/19/13 at 8:32 am to VOR)
quote:
Not what the framers really had in mind, but I'm not going to get into an argument that's been repeated ad nauseum on the board.
So you're going to make a declarative statement but you won't back it up?
Would you at least state what you thought the framers had in mind since I'm unaware of your stance on this issue?
| | Back to top | | Meauxjeaux
Memphis Fan
I have 91k posts with all my alters
Member since Jun 2005
12984 posts
| re: The sobering truth about 'Gun Rights'...ultimately (Posted on 1/19/13 at 8:34 am to Ace Midnight)
quote:
I'm rethinking that. You're young,
I will say that knowing the age of a poster here would be a great help.
I could determine if someone just hasn't yet matured enough to understand the realities of the world or if they are just a bumbling idiot. 
| | Back to top | | Powerman
LSU Fan
Corpus Christi, TX
Member since Jan 2004
115655 posts
Online
| re: The sobering truth about 'Gun Rights'...ultimately (Posted on 1/19/13 at 8:41 am to Meauxjeaux)
quote:
I will say that knowing the age of a poster here would be a great help.
Sometimes
But there are a lot of older people on here who are idiots that are consistently wrong about just about everything
| | Back to top | | Radiojones
LSU Fan
Dutchtown, LA
Member since Feb 2007
4181 posts
| re: The sobering truth about 'Gun Rights'...ultimately (Posted on 1/19/13 at 8:42 am to EthanL)
quote:
when does the 2nd not apply
When the Constitution is amended to make it no longer apply. Until then, it is the law of the land.
| | Back to top | | wryder1
LSU Fan
Pollock
Member since Feb 2008
1775 posts
Online
| re: The sobering truth about 'Gun Rights'...ultimately (Posted on 1/19/13 at 8:43 am to EthanL)
Ethan,
Why do YOU have to understand the "thrill" some people get from shooting, in order for YOU to justify us keeping them? It wasnt to long ago that A LOT of white people wouldnt have thought YOU deserved the same rights as the rest of us. Did that make them right? No, it did not.
It doesnt matter what you or anyone else thinks about why people should or should not own a gun or type of gun. The point is, it is OUR right to own a gun. It doesnt matter the reason. I can own it because I believe a zombie apocolypse is coming, because I like shooting paper targets, hunting, self defense OR THAT I BELIEVE THIS COUNTRY IS GOING TO HELL IN A HANDBASKET AND I MAY BELIEVE I NEED IT FOR THE NEXT CIVIL WAR.
The point is, it isnt any of your business why. Nobody asked why blacks deserved the same rights as the rest of us because it doesnt matter. What matters is, they are your rights and whether or not you want to exercise those rights is up to you. Gun owners choose to exercise their rights to own guns and that is all you should need to know. If you bash them or trample them, you become an instant hypocrite.
As far as you not hanging around thug black people to reduce your chances of getting shot.... the key word is REDUCED because you sure as hell didnt eliminate that chance. Last time I checked, white people get shot just like black people.
| | Back to top | | Good Times
LSU Fan
Hill top in Tn
Member since Nov 2007
7624 posts
| re: The sobering truth about 'Gun Rights'...ultimately (Posted on 1/19/13 at 8:45 am to Powerman)
quote:
But there are a lot of older people on here who are idiots that are consistently wrong about just about everything
Did you read ALL of MeauxJeaux's post? 
| | Back to top | | Patrick O Rly
New Orleans Saints Fan
y u do dis?
Member since Aug 2011
25549 posts
Online
| re: The sobering truth about 'Gun Rights'...ultimately (Posted on 1/19/13 at 8:52 am to Powerman)
Before I take the time to read this, is this one of these threads were someone claims to supply the truth on something but it's just their opinion?
| | Back to top | | CptBengal 
USA Fan
BR Baby
Member since Dec 2007
30487 posts
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| re: The sobering truth about 'Gun Rights'...ultimately (Posted on 1/19/13 at 8:52 am to EthanL)
quote:
How much longer do we stomach, tolerate, and put up with a broken system, and dogmatically champion everyone's rights
wow. I mean just fricking wow.
| | Back to top | | ChineseBandit58
LSU Fan
piney woods
Member since Aug 2005
7382 posts
| re: The sobering truth about 'Gun Rights'...ultimately (Posted on 1/19/13 at 8:54 am to Ace Midnight)
quote:
Ethan - ..... You're young, and with youth comes this bubbling optimism in the area of problem solving. I like the thought provoking background you put into some of these, and I'm starting to detach you from the a wants and Rexes of the world.
Congratulations to both you and Ethan.
You and Ethan's last two posts represent what this board could be if everyone followed civil discourse.
Both your posts were excellent !!
| | Back to top | | MrCarton
Alabama Fan
Nashville
Member since Dec 2009
1643 posts
| re: The sobering truth about 'Gun Rights'...ultimately (Posted on 1/19/13 at 9:02 am to VOR)
quote:
VOR
You are entitled to your opinion. Would the words "well regulated" have anything to with your argument?
My argument is simply this: If one doesn't know what a militia is, how it comes to be, and how a militia is successful and why they fail, how can one argue the intent of the 2nd amendment?
We have a literal smorgasbord of examples of militias fighting against our military in the last 50 years from which to draw information.
| | Back to top | | VOR
New Orleans Saints Fan
New Orleans
Member since Apr 2009
33010 posts
Online
| re: The sobering truth about 'Gun Rights'...ultimately (Posted on 1/19/13 at 9:03 am to Powerman)
quote:
So you're going to make a declarative statement but you won't back it up?
Would you at least state what you thought the framers had in mind since I'm unaware of your stance on this issue?
Well, first, I'm not sure what the poster to whom I was responding meant by "militia movements around the world", but it sounds . . . uh, . . . unsettling?
quote:
Would you at least state what you thought the framers had in mind since I'm unaware of your stance on this issue?
This was very young country when the Constitution was written and the Bill of Rights attached. Much of it was wilderness, we were still under threat of direct foreign influence and the army was small. In my opinion, and based upon the sources I've read, the framers were referring to the ability of communities and/or states to maintain militias to defend themselves or assist the army in doing so. That's where the "well regulated" part of the Amendment comes in. However, the Amendment is now interpreted by some people as having the sole purpose of allowing individuals to arm themselves with whatever the frick they want so that the can defend themselves against the Feds, liberals and Negroes.
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