19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom | Page 7 | TigerDroppings.com

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Decatur
New Orleans Saints Fan
Member since Mar 2007
17684 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


What about using supplemental textbooks that:

(1) stress the inferiority of American capitalism,
(2) stress “the lack of importance of personal responsibility for life choices”,
(3) replace the word “capitalism” throughout their texts with the “kapitalism,”
(4) encourage students study the reasons “the founding fathers were wrong to protect religious freedom in America because religion is a disease”
(5) require that the history of McCarthyism include “how the communist infiltration in U.S. government” was not all that bad
(6) ensure that students study the violent philosophy of the Stalinists in addition to the nonviolent approach of the Nonviolent Communists

What could go wrong?






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BigJim
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2010
2971 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

What about using supplemental textbooks that:

(1) stress the inferiority of American capitalism,
(2) stress “the lack of importance of personal responsibility for life choices”,
(3) replace the word “capitalism” throughout their texts with the “kapitalism,”
(4) encourage students study the reasons “the founding fathers were wrong to protect religious freedom in America because religion is a disease”
(5) require that the history of McCarthyism include “how the communist infiltration in U.S. government” was not all that bad
(6) ensure that students study the violent philosophy of the Stalinists in addition to the nonviolent approach of the Nonviolent Communists

What could go wrong?


If a teacher did that AND the class got 5's on the AP history exam, I could give a flip.

Let the teacher teach, and hold them accountable for their results. Radical concept, I know.






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GeauxTigerTM
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2006
12074 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

I think we agree on 'why' this law was passed and the modus operandi of the groups behind it. Each time they pass a law, it gets struck down, and they come up with a new law that seeks to promote creationism/undermine evolution but stay within the confines of what the court has already determined. Rinse and repeat.


Right...that is what I'm arguing. In no way am I suggesting that in a PERFECT world they'd prefer this wording to straight up what they tried when they triggered Edwards V Aguillard back in 1987...clearly they'd prefer to straight up declare what they want, but they are taking what they can get in hopes of more.

quote:


I differ in that I think that the courts have so hemmed in what creationists can push, that this law does nothing. It essentially says teachers can bring in supplemental material (but they still have to teach the primary material). Big whoop. I would argue that I have yet to see a teacher disciplined for bringing in extra material (before or after the law) so I don't think it has any meaning. It is totally symbolic.


This is where I disagree with you in terms of the importance of this. Think of this hypothetical...you've got a teacher who's a creationist. She "teaches" the text and lays out the case for biological evolution all the while with a wink and a smile to her class. Then, she yanks out text supplied by The Discovery Institute that completely undermines what she just taught. What benefit is that if the goal is to teach the initial information, or is that simply a way to muddy the waters of what is officially being asked to be taught?

Could this work in any other discipline? Teach geology as if we live on an ancient earth, but then allow a creationist teacher to suggest the earth is 10,000 years old in the next breath? what if we did it with history and you mentioned the holocaust, and then in the next breath taught that it wasn't real?

If there was REALLY a controversy among scientists in the field, then I'd suggest you teach that. There isn't. This is a cultural issue and by allowing these folks to circumvent the scientific process like this harms everyone. I'll post this link of Ken Miller (devout Catholic) describing why this is bad as I like the way he puts it.

Ken Miller on the scientific process






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Ratsofftoyou
Auburn Fan
Member since Oct 2011
157 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


I imagine a lot of you who support this trojan horse of a law will quickly change your mind once someone starts teaching non-Christian creation.

Regardless of how you feel about the validity of creation stories, though, they are not science. The answers provided in creationism were not arrived at through scientific scrutiny and review and they do not belong in a science class room. Simple as that.






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TK421
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Oct 2011
8334 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

If there was REALLY a controversy among scientists in the field, then I'd suggest you teach that.


Hey, one of the leaders of the Discovery Institute has a Ph.D.






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Decatur
New Orleans Saints Fan
Member since Mar 2007
17684 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

Regardless of how you feel about the validity of creation stories, though, they are not science. The answers provided in creationism were not arrived at through scientific scrutiny and review and they do not belong in a science class room. Simple as that.


This is the crux of the biscuit






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BigJim
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2010
2971 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

This is where I disagree with you in terms of the importance of this. Think of this hypothetical...you've got a teacher who's a creationist. She "teaches" the text and lays out the case for biological evolution all the while with a wink and a smile to her class. Then, she yanks out text supplied by The Discovery Institute that completely undermines what she just taught. What benefit is that if the goal is to teach the initial information, or is that simply a way to muddy the waters of what is officially being asked to be taught?

Could this work in any other discipline? Teach geology as if we live on an ancient earth, but then allow a creationist teacher to suggest the earth is 10,000 years old in the next breath? what if we did it with history and you mentioned the holocaust, and then in the next breath taught that it wasn't real?


They could do that before. Or to be a little clearer, if they would have done that before they would not have been disciplined.

I am arguing from an academic freedom standpoint. Let's teachers teach. If they want to bring in crazy supplemental material that is between them, the students, the parents and the principal. It should not be legislatively prohibited statewide because a teacher "might" not teach it "correctly." That is just arrogant and authoritarian.






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Antonio Moss
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Mar 2006
29051 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

I am arguing from an academic freedom standpoint.


We're talking about middle school and high school teachers, here. Not some Ph.D'd professor in a University that does his own research.

There is no academic basis behind Creationism. It's fabricated nonsense.

quote:

Let's teachers teach.


Most teachers teach what the book tells them to teach. That's why Creationism doesn't appear in a science book and is not taught.






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GeauxTigerTM
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2006
12074 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

They could do that before. Or to be a little clearer, if they would have done that before they would not have been disciplined.


Are you suggesting that prior to this law it would have been legal for a teacher to walk into a science classroom and teach that the world is 6,000 years old and that special creation as taught by fundamentalist Christians is true and evolution by natural selection is false? It's precisely that that seemingly triggers these lawsuits which always get this stuff tossed on it's ear.

quote:

I am arguing from an academic freedom standpoint. Let's teachers teach. If they want to bring in crazy supplemental material that is between them, the students, the parents and the principal. It should not be legislatively prohibited statewide because a teacher "might" not teach it "correctly." That is just arrogant and authoritarian.


Then we simply disagree. If you have a teacher whose goal it is to undermine what they are supposed to be teaching based on the standards set forth, than there is no reasons for the standards in the first place. Pulling your own pet beliefs out of your arse to undermine accepted science does not fall under academic freedom. We'd see just how much it doesn't if a teacher would suddenly drop some other creation story onto their students as a valid alternative to biological evolution that wasn't christian based.






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bpfergu
Arkansas Fan
Member since Jun 2011
3430 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

You have yet to provide any instance of this happening in a public school outside of this one claim. It goes directly against the law in place and you act like it is happening in every school in Louisiana.

You are the lost cause in this thread. Or you are just the typical angry atheist, I don't care which.


I never made the claim that it has happened outside of this one incident, so the burden of proof to provide more examples is non-existent.

I never acted like it was happening in every school in Louisiana, so please don't put words in my mouth.

Also, calling me an "angry atheist" doesn't help your argument at all. Just because I disagree with this act doesn't make me an "angry atheist". Nice stereotyping, though.

My only argument has been that this law is ridiculous and provides no benefit other than allowing teachers, if they would like, to inject personal, bias, non-scientific mythology into the science classroom. In my opinion, the "critical thinking" piece is just some semantic bologna in order to get this law passed. Of course there is critical thinking in the science classroom. That is what science is. There doesn't need to be a law that restates that. Even if this only happened one time at one school, it doesn't take away from the fact that the law itself is not needed.



This post was edited on 1/17 at 1:27 pm


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bpfergu
Arkansas Fan
Member since Jun 2011
3430 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

I imagine a lot of you who support this trojan horse of a law will quickly change your mind once someone starts teaching non-Christian creation.


Exactly.

That is where this whole "critical thinking" bit comes to play.

If you are going to play that card, and give the students the opportunity to hear different explanations, then it is only fair to teach them ALL major religious explanations for these topics. If you stick to strictly Christianity (which I assume most teachers in Louisiana who taught creationism would do), then you are showing personal bias.

It is much more simple, in my opinion, to stick to science in science class. If students are interested in learning about various religions then offer a class that teaches that.






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onmymedicalgrind
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Member since Dec 2012
6057 posts
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re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

Lay those out please

Well for one, can you explain these variations in measured G, some varying by 10 std dev if I recall correctly
LINK
LINK
LINK
LINK

My point by bringing up gravity was simple: what you call "holes" are more like minor variations or disagreements concerning details that do little to raise questions regarding the underlying theory because of the breadth of supporting evidence.
quote:

Bottomline: I suspect either you didn't really read the post you're responding to, or you are simply out of your depth on the subject.

Not an expert in physics, I have no problem admitting that. Pretty well-versed in evolution, though probably not as much as you on account of your high school project.






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BigJim
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2010
2971 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

We're talking about middle school and high school teachers, here. Not some Ph.D'd professor in a University that does his own research.

There is no academic basis behind Creationism. It's fabricated nonsense.


Agree that middle school and high school teacher academic freedom should not be as broad as college Ph.Ds. But they still need to have latitude in the classroom.

I also agree that creationism is nonsense. But I don't think a top-down rule that doesn't not allow supplemental material isn't as good as working out issues at an individual level.

Let teachers bring in supplemental material (allowed by this law). If they make a poor choice (e.g. does not promote critical thinking, part of the guidelines in this law) then the principal can advise them not to bring it again. That seems like a much better system than "STICK TO THE BOOK"

quote:

Most teachers teach what the book tells them to teach. That's why Creationism doesn't appear in a science book and is not taught.


Most of my best teachers did not stick to the book. Most of my mediocre ones did.






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onmymedicalgrind
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its goin down in that SSB
Member since Dec 2012
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re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

That seems like a much better system than "STICK TO THE BOOK"

Why? Science in middle and high school is pretty cut and dry as far as content goes. Its not until you get to college and/or graduate education where you start to be presented with material that is subject to some debate and there is still ongoing research regarding it. Same can't be said regarding the periodic table or basic evolutionary principles.
quote:

Most of my best teachers did not stick to the book. Most of my mediocre ones did.

Sticking to the book does not mean a teacher can't be creative, interactive, and overall very effective.






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BigJim
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2010
2971 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

Sticking to the book does not mean a teacher can't be creative, interactive, and overall very effective


Guess I just disagree here.







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NC_Tigah
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Member since Sep 2003
54282 posts
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re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

what you call "holes" are more like minor variations
Minor?
As related to gravity. Yes

But NOT as related to hominid phenotypical evolution.
Trust me!

Now in considering the contributions of DNA, and environmental stress (survival of the fittest) as pertains to evolution, it's just a matter of time. At some point we'll not only prove our relationship with Habilis, we'll be able to recreate him.






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AUsteriskPride
Auburn Fan
Hunstville, AL
Member since Feb 2011
11448 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

Why are some people so afraid of something they don't believe in?


Because a holy book is not an alternative to science.. They aren't competing thoughts as much as some want them to be.






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onmymedicalgrind
LSU Fan
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Member since Dec 2012
6057 posts
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re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

Guess I just disagree here.

By "sticking to the book" I understood that to mean sticking to the facts a science book states/presents. Not literally telling your students "read this chapter, take notes on it, and there will be a test on it this Friday."

If you meant the latter, then I agree with you.






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Libertariantiger
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Member since Nov 2012
445 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


Didn't know Julie Quinn was such a bitch. Whatever side u fall on, she came off insecure, disrespectful, and argumentative on the video. And she looked better than the other rep, who just looked retarded. I assume there was other dissenting views that may have been week spoken and thought out, but those two were not.

Rep. Quinn....... WYHI?






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Cruiserhog
Arkansas Fan
Little Rock
Member since Apr 2008
3698 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

AN ACT

To enact R.S. 17:285.1, relative to curriculum and instruction; to provide relative to the teaching of scientific subjects in public elementary and secondary schools; to promote students' critical thinking skills and open discussion of scientific theories; to provide relative to support and guidance for teachers; to provide relative to textbooks and instructional materials; to provide for rules and regulations; to provide for effectiveness; and to provide for related matters.

Be it enacted by the Legislature of Louisiana:

Section 1. R.S. 17:285.1 is hereby enacted to read as follows:

§285.1. Science education; development of critical thinking skills
A. This Section shall be known and may be cited as the "Louisiana Science Education Act."

B.(1) The State Board of Elementary and Secondary Education, upon request of a city, parish, or other local public school board, shall allow and assist teachers, principals, and other school administrators to create and foster an environment within public elementary and secondary schools that promotes critical thinking skills, logical analysis, and open and objective discussion of scientific theories being studied including, but not limited to, evolution, the origins of life, global warming, and human cloning.

(2) Such assistance shall include support and guidance for teachers regarding effective ways to help students understand, analyze, critique, and objectively review scientific theories being studied, including those enumerated in Paragraph (1) of this Subsection.

C. A teacher shall teach the material presented in the standard textbook supplied by the school system and thereafter may use supplemental textbooks and other instructional materials to help students understand, analyze, critique, and review scientific theories in an objective manner, as permitted by the city, parish, or other local public school board unless otherwise prohibited by the State Board of Elementary and Secondary Education.

D. This Section shall not be construed to promote any religious doctrine, promote discrimination for or against a particular set of religious beliefs, or promote discrimination for or against religion or nonreligion.


This is bull shite right here and you know it

E. The State Board of Elementary and Secondary Education and each city, parish, or other local public school board shall adopt and promulgate the rules and regulations necessary to implement the provisions of this Section prior to the beginning of the 2008-2009 school year.

Section 2. This Act shall become effective upon signature by the governor or, if not signed by the governor, upon expiration of the time for bills to become law without signature by the governor, as provided by Article III, Section 18 of the Constitution of Louisiana. If vetoed by the governor and subsequently approved by the legislature, this Act shall become effective on the day following such approval.


the bolded areas are worded so poorly when it come to referencing Evolution as a 'competing theory' when there is no competing theory proffered by anyone with one single piece of evidence to back up their claim. The Theory of Evolution has no competing Theory.

Evolution is fact and should be taught as such no strings attached. You cant look at the evidence for it an honestly suggest that Creationism ID deserve the same credentials without peer review and one hundred and fifty years of knowledge enhancement.



This post was edited on 1/17 at 9:18 pm


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