19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom | Page 6 | TigerDroppings.com

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GeauxTigerTM
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re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:


In short, if I was a creationist (I'm not) I would extremely disappointed with this bill. It did NOTHING.


No...it was EXACTLY what groups like Discovery Institute and the Alliance Defense Fund wanted done. Given we know what their goal is, and they got what they wanted out of the bill, how again should they not be pleased with the result? They got the legislature (and they are working with various other legislatures across the country) to word it this way because they think it enables them to do what they wants without fear of sending up signal flags or being OBVIOUSLY religious, even though each and every one of these groups is explicitly that. This wording was not some compromise...it was honed over many many court losses to what you see here. It's merely the newest attempted wording.

LINK

Again...this is merely attempt #342 to sneak special creationism back into the public school after having it tossed out EVERY TIME it's tried in less underhanded ways. I'll give it to the groups this go 'round...they are getting better at the PR game. But let's not pretend that this isn't what it is.

They got tossed on their ear after the Edwards v Aquillard case here in LA in 1987 ( LINK)...they adjusted a bit and got seen for what they were in Kitzmiller v Dover ( LINK) and when this eventually gets challenged it will get tossed out again.




This post was edited on 1/16 at 2:28 pm


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NC_Tigah
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re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

quote:

Regarding origin of life, global warming, human cloning, are you suggesting that AGW is not taught in Public HS Science Classes?

there are hypothesis on those subjects but not an consensus of facts pointing to narrative that has reached Theory status.
I find it interesting that while attempting to argue scientific basis, many here are unable to stay on point, respond on point, or in this case reflect on issues within the realm of reality.

I'm not certain, based on exchanges here for example, that "bpfergu" even knows what Anthropogenic Global Warming refers to, much less the validity or invalidity of science behind it. In addressing your deflection above, for anyone to intimate AGW is not addressed in middle school and high school science class is astonishing. Just astonishing. To put it bluntly there are Warmist Mythologists out there who address AGW as "settled fact". It is as you would say "accepted theory" presented to our kids to be memorized and regurgitated. No debate. No discussion. NO CRITICAL THINKING. It is incredibly presented as fact.
quote:

Some scientific conclusions or theories have been so thoroughly examined and tested, and supported by so many independent observations and results, that their likelihood of subsequently being found to be wrong is vanishingly small. Such conclusions and theories are then regarded as settled facts. This is the case for the conclusions that the Earth system is warming and that much of this warming is very likely due to human activities


Regarding evolution and as someone thoroughly supportive of Evolution Theory, I still find abject dismissal of critiques of evolution by some to be surprising. Dating back prior to HS, I've been fascinated by evolution, specifically the evolution of man. Won a State Science Fair on the topic. Got to meet Richard Leakey in part as a result. Have travelled to the Olduvai Gorge. Evolution is a subject I am extremely comfortable with.

It is also a theory that, when applied to homo sapiens, has several holes. Notable is the linear presumption of hominid evolution Australopithecus=>H. habilis=>H.erectus=>H.heidelbergensis=>H.sapiens. Widespread species distributions like erectus raise significant questions regarding validity of theory details. It may turn out we don't yet understand exactly how Sapiens came about. E.g., years ago it was assumed Neanderthal was Sapiens' predecessor. We no longer believe that to be the case. I'm not uncomfortable in the least addressing Creationists on the topic --- warts and all. You shouldn't be either.

AGW is another matter entirely. Evolution is quality science. AGW is BS.







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Cruiserhog
Arkansas Fan
Little Rock
Member since Apr 2008
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re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

NC_Tigah


my point was to argue the way the LSEA was worded with 'competing theories' made it vague and wrong.

There are no competing theories for Evolution-descent with modification under selective pressure is the only observalbe/testable explanation for all that we see.

AGW, Abiogenesis, etc all have major chunks of the scientist population that dont believe these are accurate models for whats happening or happened

AGW is hard to prove as is Abiogenesis and therefor while AGW may be 'settled fact' its not something I would personally say quite meets the threshold of Theory and it may not ever meet the criteria needed because its such an enormous problem to explain.

quote:

I'm not uncomfortable in the least addressing Creationists on the topic --- warts and all. You shouldn't be either.


Oh I am. Creationism is for simple minded, scared people who have trouble with objectively looking at evidence when its contrary to an indoctrinated belief structure.






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BigJim
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Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2010
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re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

it was honed over many many court losses to what you see here.


You say honed, I say neutered. Seeing as how there hasn't been a massive dam-burst of creationism being taught, I think I'm right.






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onmymedicalgrind
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its goin down in that SSB
Member since Dec 2012
5212 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


There are also "several holes" in the theory of gravity. Does very little to its overall validity, though, due to the overwhelming amount of evidence in support of it.

Not having all the answers presently is not necessarily evidence refuting a specific theory. Research in alot of subjects regarded as fact will forever be on going. The cliche is "the more we know, the more we don't know."

Evolution is scientific fact. Stating anything to the contrary only unveils one's ignorance on the subject.






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GeauxTigerTM
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re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

You say honed, I say neutered. Seeing as how there hasn't been a massive dam-burst of creationism being taught, I think I'm right.


Why neutered? The same groups that have been swatted down time and time again come back each time with a slightly more slippery definition which they think can pass constitutional muster and yet allow what they want back into the classroom. Not one of the groups I've cited here would call this anything other than an outright win for their side...not a compromise.

As for whether or not things have thus far been done that would trigger a legal fight, I have no idea of knowing that. After all, in order to get any legal issues started, there would first have to be a student (or parent) willing to come forward and risk the ostracizing that would go along with making an issue out of it. When it inevitably does occur in front of the right person, it will get tossed out just as the prior iterations were. I'd venture to say that it won't be the last time, and we'll be treated with a newer version of this next go 'round.






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NC_Tigah
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re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

my point was to argue the way the LSEA was worded with 'competing theories' made it vague and wrong.
Have you read the LSEA?

HERE IS THE LSEA IN ITS ENTIRETY:
quote:

AN ACT

To enact R.S. 17:285.1, relative to curriculum and instruction; to provide relative to the teaching of scientific subjects in public elementary and secondary schools; to promote students' critical thinking skills and open discussion of scientific theories; to provide relative to support and guidance for teachers; to provide relative to textbooks and instructional materials; to provide for rules and regulations; to provide for effectiveness; and to provide for related matters.

Be it enacted by the Legislature of Louisiana:

Section 1. R.S. 17:285.1 is hereby enacted to read as follows:

§285.1. Science education; development of critical thinking skills
A. This Section shall be known and may be cited as the "Louisiana Science Education Act."

B.(1) The State Board of Elementary and Secondary Education, upon request of a city, parish, or other local public school board, shall allow and assist teachers, principals, and other school administrators to create and foster an environment within public elementary and secondary schools that promotes critical thinking skills, logical analysis, and open and objective discussion of scientific theories being studied including, but not limited to, evolution, the origins of life, global warming, and human cloning.

(2) Such assistance shall include support and guidance for teachers regarding effective ways to help students understand, analyze, critique, and objectively review scientific theories being studied, including those enumerated in Paragraph (1) of this Subsection.

C. A teacher shall teach the material presented in the standard textbook supplied by the school system and thereafter may use supplemental textbooks and other instructional materials to help students understand, analyze, critique, and review scientific theories in an objective manner, as permitted by the city, parish, or other local public school board unless otherwise prohibited by the State Board of Elementary and Secondary Education.

D. This Section shall not be construed to promote any religious doctrine, promote discrimination for or against a particular set of religious beliefs, or promote discrimination for or against religion or nonreligion.

E. The State Board of Elementary and Secondary Education and each city, parish, or other local public school board shall adopt and promulgate the rules and regulations necessary to implement the provisions of this Section prior to the beginning of the 2008-2009 school year.

Section 2. This Act shall become effective upon signature by the governor or, if not signed by the governor, upon expiration of the time for bills to become law without signature by the governor, as provided by Article III, Section 18 of the Constitution of Louisiana. If vetoed by the governor and subsequently approved by the legislature, this Act shall become effective on the day following such approval.
Could you point out your areas of concern?






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NC_Tigah
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re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

There are also "several holes" in the theory of gravity.
Lay those out please.
Seriously. If you're going to draw the comparison, then lay those holes out.
Then let's compare the result to actual phenotypical evidence of hominid evolution.

Bottomline: I suspect either you didn't really read the post you're responding to, or you are simply out of your depth on the subject.







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bpfergu
Arkansas Fan
Member since Jun 2011
3411 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

I find it interesting that while attempting to argue scientific basis, many here are unable to stay on point, respond on point, or in this case reflect on issues within the realm of reality.

I'm not certain, based on exchanges here for example, that "bpfergu" even knows what Anthropogenic Global Warming refers to, much less the validity or invalidity of science behind it.


Oh, the irony. We were discussing teaching creationism in science class instead of evolution and you go on some random tangent about global warming, which has absolutely NOTHING to do with what we were talking about.

However, keep making (incorrect) assumptions about someone you know nothing about, and who actually has substantially more experience in the scientific and engineering field than you. I find it quite comical.






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TK421
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Member since Oct 2011
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re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

We were discussing teaching creationism in science class instead of evolution


No one is doing this.






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bpfergu
Arkansas Fan
Member since Jun 2011
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re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

No one is doing this.


You truly are a lost cause.






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TK421
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Member since Oct 2011
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re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


You have yet to provide any instance of this happening in a public school outside of this one claim. It goes directly against the law in place and you act like it is happening in every school in Louisiana.

You are the lost cause in this thread. Or you are just the typical angry atheist, I don't care which.






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NC_Tigah
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Member since Sep 2003
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re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

who actually has substantially more experience in the scientific . . . field than you.
I'd be willing to wager you're wrong. Very wrong.
quote:

keep making (incorrect) assumptions about someone you know nothing about


quote:

We were discussing teaching creationism in science class instead of evolution and you go on some random tangent about global warming, which has absolutely NOTHING to do with what we were talking about.


""""""For Zack Kopplin, it all started back in 2008 with the passing of the Louisiana Science Education Act."""""""






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CITWTT
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baton rouge
Member since Sep 2005
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re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


I met the little guy when he did it, and it is all about publicity for how smart he is, and nothing more than that.





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NC_Tigah
LSU Fan
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re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

I met the little guy when he did it
bpfergu or Zack Kopplin?






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BigJim
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Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2010
2645 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

Why neutered? The same groups that have been swatted down time and time again come back each time with a slightly more slippery definition which they think can pass constitutional muster and yet allow what they want back into the classroom. Not one of the groups I've cited here would call this anything other than an outright win for their side...not a compromise.

As for whether or not things have thus far been done that would trigger a legal fight, I have no idea of knowing that. After all, in order to get any legal issues started, there would first have to be a student (or parent) willing to come forward and risk the ostracizing that would go along with making an issue out of it. When it inevitably does occur in front of the right person, it will get tossed out just as the prior iterations were. I'd venture to say that it won't be the last time, and we'll be treated with a newer version of this next go 'round


I think we agree on 'why' this law was passed and the modus operandi of the groups behind it. Each time they pass a law, it gets struck down, and they come up with a new law that seeks to promote creationism/undermine evolution but stay within the confines of what the court has already determined. Rinse and repeat.

I differ in that I think that the courts have so hemmed in what creationists can push, that this law does nothing. It essentially says teachers can bring in supplemental material (but they still have to teach the primary material). Big whoop. I would argue that I have yet to see a teacher disciplined for bringing in extra material (before or after the law) so I don't think it has any meaning. It is totally symbolic.







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Decatur
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Member since Mar 2007
17604 posts

re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

I would argue that I have yet to see a teacher disciplined for bringing in extra material (before or after the law) so I don't think it has any meaning.


Wait till they get a load of me...




This post was edited on 1/17 at 12:05 pm


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NC_Tigah
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re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

I differ in that I think that the courts have so hemmed in what creationists can push, that this law does nothing. It essentially says teachers can bring in supplemental material (but they still have to teach the primary material). Big whoop. I would argue that I have yet to see a teacher disciplined for bringing in extra material (before or after the law) so I don't think it has any meaning. It is totally symbolic.
Right.
So you'd side with the New Orleans board to oppose the LSEA, and to forbid teachers from using ""revisionist"" textbooks which:

(1) stress superiority of American capitalism,
(2) stress “the importance of personal responsibility for life choices”,
(3) replace the word “capitalism” throughout their texts with the “free-enterprise system,”
(4) encourage students study the reasons “the founding fathers protected religious freedom in America by barring the government from promoting or disfavoring any particular religion above all others”
(5) require that the history of McCarthyism include “how the later release of the Venona papers confirmed suspicions of communist infiltration in U.S. government,”
(6) ensure that students study the violent philosophy of the Black Panthers in addition to the nonviolent approach of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

As a few other asides.






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CITWTT
LSU Fan
baton rouge
Member since Sep 2005
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re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


Zack. He is a self important infant whose shite smells like rosewater to him.





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BigJim
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2010
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re: 19 year old fighting for Lousiana to keep science in the classroom


quote:

Right.
So you'd side with the New Orleans board to oppose the LSEA, and to forbid teachers from using ""revisionist"" textbooks which:

(1) stress superiority of American capitalism,
(2) stress “the importance of personal responsibility for life choices”,
(3) replace the word “capitalism” throughout their texts with the “free-enterprise system,”
(4) encourage students study the reasons “the founding fathers protected religious freedom in America by barring the government from promoting or disfavoring any particular religion above all others”
(5) require that the history of McCarthyism include “how the later release of the Venona papers confirmed suspicions of communist infiltration in U.S. government,”
(6) ensure that students study the violent philosophy of the Black Panthers in addition to the nonviolent approach of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

As a few other asides


Uhm...no?

Not quite sure what you are accusing me of, but when I am put on the side of the NO school board, the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

Was there a teacher who brought in supplemental materials on "the importance of personal responsibility for life choices" and was disciplined? Sounds like just general political stupidity on the school boards part.






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