Chipper vs. Biggio | Page 3 | TigerDroppings.com
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JimMorrison
South Carolina Fan
The Peninsula
Member since May 2012
16633 posts

re: Chipper vs. Biggio

quote:

Chipper is my guy.










I'm biased though


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SouljaBreauxTellEm
LSU Fan
Mizz
Member since Aug 2009
27784 posts

re: Chipper vs. Biggio
Ba ha ha you can have your biggio. Can't believe this is serious lol.


Bench McElroy
Member since Nov 2009
15345 posts
Online

re: Chipper vs. Biggio
quote:

I like to imagine VerlanderBEAST isn't a troll, and that there is actually someone so incredibly dumb and overwhelmingly wrong 100% of the time in all aspects of sports.

It's impossible, I know. But I want to believe.



VerlanderBeast posts a lot of dumb shite sometimes but he's 100% right about the greatness of Biggio. At their peaks, Biggio wasn't that much inferior to Chipper offensively. Going by their best six year stretches, Chipper had an OPS+ of 152 while Biggio's OPS+ was 135. However, Biggio was significantly better defensively and on the basepaths. Going by WAR, Biggio's accumulated WAR of 35.7 is actually higher than Chipper's 34.2 WAR. He was actually a more valuable player at his peak than Chipper was.


OBUDan
LSU Fan
Chicago
Member since Aug 2006
40411 posts

re: Chipper vs. Biggio
quote:

Oh and can we stop with the archaic way of comparing guys using career totals.


I used rate stats, almost exclusively.

The totals I used, I based off of career PAs, so as to show how much better Chipper was.

They played the same era, so not like we're fudging here.

quote:

But Biggio at 2nd>>>>>Chipper at 3rd.


Craig Biggio was an awful, awful 2B.

-32 DRS at 2B.

-5 DRA for Chipper at 3B.

Biggio's catching doesn't even get factored into his bad defense.


heartbreakTiger
Wisconsin Fan
grinding for my grinders
Member since Jan 2008
123352 posts

re: Chipper vs. Biggio
quote:

I like to imagine VerlanderBEAST isn't a troll, and that there is actually someone so incredibly dumb and overwhelmingly wrong 100% of the time in all aspects of sports.

It's impossible, I know. But I want to believe.
it does exist, the answer is peej


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VerlanderBEAST
Michigan Fan
Member since Dec 2011
12314 posts

re: Chipper vs. Biggio
quote:

I used rate stats, almost exclusively.

The totals I used, I based off of career PAs, so as to show how much better Chipper was.



1. UZR DRS etc are counting stats just like hits or homeruns

2. Any comparison of career #s whether rate or counting stats is archaic. Its silly to combine what they did when they were out of their primes and what they did out of their primes. Players should be compared by what they did at their best then if its somewhat close you can look at who was "better at their worst".


VerlanderBEAST
Michigan Fan
Member since Dec 2011
12314 posts

re: Chipper vs. Biggio
quote:

Craig Biggio was an awful, awful 2B.

-32 DRS at 2B.

-5 DRA for Chipper at 3B.


DRS is a silly stat. Chipper had AWFUL range and wasn't reliable(made lots of errors). The fact that he is only -5 runs shows that the stat is silly.

FYI the DRS stat only goes back to 2003.


lsuguy13
LSU Fan
Tha Present
Member since Mar 2004
7395 posts

re: Chipper vs. Biggio
Its chipper and its really not that close


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1fairbank
LSU Fan
Smells Funny
Member since Sep 2011
1374 posts

re: Chipper vs. Biggio
Chipper, and this coming from a 'Stros fan.

The problem with Biggio is he stayed with the 'Stros his entire career. God bless him for doing it, but outside of Houston, I think he's a relative unknown.


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SouljaBreauxTellEm
LSU Fan
Mizz
Member since Aug 2009
27784 posts

re: Chipper vs. Biggio
quote:

But Biggio at 2nd>>>>>Chipper at 3rd.


yeah i didn't get that either.. as if 2nd is all that big of a deal. chipper was an excellent defensive player.


VerlanderBEAST
Michigan Fan
Member since Dec 2011
12314 posts

re: Chipper vs. Biggio
quote:

chipper was an excellent defensive player.


catfish 62
LSU Fan
Atlanta
Member since Mar 2010
2927 posts

re: Chipper vs. Biggio
quote:

I like to imagine VerlanderBEAST isn't a troll, and that there is actually someone so incredibly dumb and overwhelmingly wrong 100% of the time in all aspects of sports.


This is exactly how I picture this poster to be.


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htownjeep
LSU Fan
Nassau Bay, TX
Member since Jun 2005
6208 posts

re: Chipper vs. Biggio
quote:

The first time he did it he was an all-star catcher that moved to 2nd. Second time he was sent to the outfield when jeff kent came in

Then moved yet again when Beltran came in.


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Baloo
LSU Fan
Formerly MDGeaux
Member since Sep 2003
44902 posts

re: Chipper vs. Biggio
quote:

LOL name one thing Biggio did better than Chipper

Run
Hit doubles
Hit triples
Steal bases
Get hit by pitch
Bunting
Play multiple positions
Not hit into double plays
Score runs


Look, I think Chipper was the better player as well, but the idea Chipper was better at every skill than Biggio is just stupid. It's way overstating the case for Chipper, and people are way overstating the case for Chipper. Thinking Biggio is better is perfectly defensible, though I think Chipper's edge in OBP and SLG is kind of a deal breaker. Those are the two most important skills in baseball (getting on and hitting for power), and chipper had them both in spades.



craigbiggio
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Dec 2009
13211 posts

re: Chipper vs. Biggio
Biggo


Srbtiger06
USA Fan
Buga Nation
Member since Apr 2006
22616 posts
Online

re: Chipper vs. Biggio
quote:

craigbiggio


quote:

Biggo




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OBUDan
LSU Fan
Chicago
Member since Aug 2006
40411 posts

re: Chipper vs. Biggio
quote:

DRS is a silly stat.


Every single defensive stats comes with it's own sets of strengths and weaknesses.

quote:

made lots of errors)


Talk about silly stats.

quote:

FYI the DRS stat only goes back to 2003.


Yes, I know.

Biggio has range. And he's STILL terrible by every other metric.
This post was edited on 1/10 at 8:38 am


RollDatRoll
New Orleans Saints Fan
Roll Tide!
Member since Dec 2010
6915 posts

re: Chipper vs. Biggio
Nice work Dan. It's Chipper. Chipper is a no-doubt first ballot HOFer. One of the best switch hitters to ever play the game.


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OBUDan
LSU Fan
Chicago
Member since Aug 2006
40411 posts

re: Chipper vs. Biggio
quote:

Run

quote:

Steal bases


I'll give you this.

quote:

Hit doubles
Hit triples


This means nothing to me. Chipper has more XBH in 2,000 fewer PAs. He shouldn't be sorry he hit 177 more home runs than Biggio. No one would trade those for more doubles and triples. Chipper hit more homeruns than Biggio, than Biggio hit more doubles/triples than Chipper.

If you do it by rates, just looking at doubles and triples, it's not that big of a discrepancy, either.

Biggio 723 doubles and triples in 12,504 PAs (17.29 PAs per double/triple).
Chipper 587 doubles and triples in 10,614 PAs (18.08 PAs per double/triple).

quote:

Bunting


If that's Biggio's better skill, he can have it.

quote:

Score runs


Lineup dependent. Chipper got on base at a higher rate, and had more total bases in far fewer PAs. He hit in the middle of the order, not the top. If he hit leadoff for most of his career like Biggio, he would have more runs scored.

His nearly 500 RBI (also lineup dependent) advantage more than makes up for it, anyhow.

quote:

but the idea Chipper was better at every skill than Biggio is just stupid.


Better at every skill? No.

Better at most every skill? Yes.

To me, the best skill Biggio maintained over Chipper was the ability to stay healthy. He stayed on the field constantly. Even into his late 30s. That's remarkable.

Chipper is knocked too often for his health (was mostly healthy through his peak), but once he aged, he just wasn't able to play as much and Biggio was. So I put that strongly in his favor.

quote:

Thinking Biggio is better is perfectly defensible,


I don't really see how. Chipper was worth 20 more wins than Biggio in fewer games.


Obviously I'm a well-known Braves fan. Chipper is my favorite player. But to me, the numbers are completely in his favor, and I don't think that's me being a homer.

If you put up Player A and Player B and listed all the stats blind, everyone would choose Chipper's numbers.


This post was edited on 1/10 at 8:56 am


TigerintheNO
LSU Fan
New Orleans
Member since Jan 2004
23885 posts

re: Chipper vs. Biggio
Chipper Jones


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