England and WC 2014 - Page 4 - TigerDroppings.com

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RandySavage
Member since May 2012
8039 posts

re: England and WC 2014


quote:

he fact he retired when he was thirty is a testament to everything wrong with English football at the international level


So is Wilshere going to make England better at pens? Because that's the only thing really wrong with English football at the International level at least in terms of results.

ETA: Posted before reading WSE's comments. I know he was largely joking but it's pretty true.



This post was edited on 12/21 at 1:10 pm


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acgeaux129
USA Fan
We are BR
Member since Sep 2007
15011 posts

re: England and WC 2014


I mean that's a lot of names for me to go through but a lot of them are extremely young for 2014 (what this thread was mainly about) or are well past their prime. You know England can't just rely on an unproven group of players and expect them to come into their own enough in 1.5 yrs to be able to hang with the top flight teams.

And because y'all mainly follow the premier league, of course your view is gonna be anglocentric.



This post was edited on 12/21 at 1:26 pm


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Jumbeauxlaya
LSU Fan
Denham
Member since Jan 2011
17972 posts

re: England and WC 2014


If I remember correctly the english players on Arsenal made all of their penalties against bradford. (could be wrong)





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LSUSOBEAST1
LSU Fan
Member since Aug 2008
28436 posts

re: England and WC 2014


I don't root for England in any way nor do I give two fricks about how they do in tournaments. Once again, your premise discussed "optimism" which is something England fans should have plenty of. They won't win the WC in 2014, but there is plenty of reason to suggest they can use the tournament to improve and transition to their newest generation.





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thenry712
Gonzaga Fan
Zasullia, Ukraine
Member since Nov 2008
15360 posts

re: England and WC 2014


quote:

So is Wilshere going to make England better at pens? Because that's the only thing really wrong with English football at the International level at least in terms of results.



Not even close.

Crazy just outlined the problems with England the past 46 years. In essence, England never evolved with the modern game.

England sucks in penalty kicks, but that doesn't excuse poor play that led them to said shootouts. Look at the Italy quarterfinal this past June. England was thoroughly outclassed most of the 120 minutes of play.

I would say the only England team that was unlucky to lose in penalties was the 1990 team that lost to Germany in the World Cup semifinals.



This post was edited on 12/21 at 3:02 pm


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RandySavage
Member since May 2012
8039 posts

re: England and WC 2014


quote:


Not even close.


What would a woman know about soccer anyways?






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RandySavage
Member since May 2012
8039 posts

re: England and WC 2014


quote:

England never evolved with the modern game.


What does that mean? What is the modern game? There are a million ways to win a game. Why is one different or better than the other?

quote:

Look at the Italy quarterfinal this past June. England look thoroughly outclassed most of the 120 minutes of play.


So outclassed that Italy was unable to score in 120 minutes of play?






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thenry712
Gonzaga Fan
Zasullia, Ukraine
Member since Nov 2008
15360 posts

re: England and WC 2014





Shots:
Italy 31 England 8

SOG:

Italy 18 England 4

Possession:

Italy 63% England 37%


Do you just selectively read certain posts in a thread? Read what crazy posted about Paul Scholes and his role for England. It took a herculean Joe Hart performance to keep Italy from scoring. That and some terrible decisions to shoot from Cassano.

Do you just ignore how Spain and Barcelona win championships? Are Germany's current young talents in the same mold as past physical players like Gerd Müller and Franz Beckenbauer? Is Cristiano Ronaldo the same type of winger for Real Madrid as Steve McManaman?

The way the game is played is constantly being shaped by managers tactical decisions and how the players adapt to said changes.



This post was edited on 12/21 at 2:58 pm


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RandySavage
Member since May 2012
8039 posts

re: England and WC 2014


quote:

Shots:
Italy 31 England 8

SOG:

Italy 18 England 4

Possession:

Italy 63% England 37%


You left out the stat that matters...

Goals:

Italy- 0 England- 0

quote:

Read what crazy posted about Paul Scholes and his role for England.


This is much more legend than fact.

quote:

That and some terrible decisions to shoot from Cassano.


You take bad shots when you are frustrated because you can't break down a back line.

quote:

Do you just ignore how Spain and Barcelona win championships?


Nope, it's an effective model obviously. I'm not even getting into Barcelona in this thread because it's not the place so I'll focus on Spain.

They had to come through penalty shootouts in both of their Euro wins after being held without a goal for 120 minutes. Same thing as England just lost a shootout which has nothing to do with skill or style of play.

In their World Cup win again they went about 115 min. without scoring a single goal and had Robben been able to score on one of two 1 v. 1's with the keeper or Puyol been sent off as he rightfully should have been they wouldn't have won that either.

This after winning a gritty semi 1-0 on a late header off a corner from their center back, how English of them.

This is with their best generation of players ever and the major bonus that most of the national team plays together at the same club which is huge.

Now I'm not saying they didn't deserve those titles so don't freak out (like I know some will do). However, I'm saying the margins between winning and losing in soccer are smaller than any other sport and England's model has as good a chance to be effective as any other. The only time England really blew it in recent years is not qualifying for Euro 08 which really is inexcusable. Every recent tournament they have qualified for they have advanced to the knockout stages and generally given a good account of themselves, results wise, outside the 2nd half of a tainted Germany game in South Africa.

quote:

Are Germany's current young talents in the same mold as past physical players like Gerd Müller and Franz Beckenbauer?


Nope and they also haven't won anything like those guys did either.

quote:

Is Cristiano Ronaldo the same type of winger for Real Madrid as Steve McManaman?



What does this have to do with anything? You are comparing the 2nd best player in the world to an average English international.



This post was edited on 12/21 at 3:44 pm


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WarSlamEagle
South Alabama Fan
Manchester United Fan
Member since Sep 2011
16292 posts

re: England and WC 2014


quote:

RandySavage

Those stats show that Italy dominated the match, but wasn't able to score.

They dominated possession.
They dominated shot count.
They dominated shots on goal.

Italy was clearly the better team for 120 minutes and was far more likely to break the deadlock. How hard is that to get?



This post was edited on 12/21 at 3:48 pm


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RandySavage
Member since May 2012
8039 posts

re: England and WC 2014


quote:

How hard is that to get?


What do you think I don't get? I understand Italy had the ball more and took more shots. I also understand the object of the game is to score goals which they couldn't do.







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WarSlamEagle
South Alabama Fan
Manchester United Fan
Member since Sep 2011
16292 posts

re: England and WC 2014


But you're arguing that Italy didn't outclass England in that match, which it did. They just so happened to not score.

I get that the point is to score more than the other team, but that's not all that matters. Hart was playing out of his mind that day.



This post was edited on 12/21 at 3:55 pm


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RandySavage
Member since May 2012
8039 posts

re: England and WC 2014


quote:

But you're arguing that Italy didn't outclass England in that match, which it did.


I understand, I just don't really care who passed the ball around more or took more bad shots.

quote:

They just so happened to not score.


You act like that's just some sort of accident.

quote:

I get that the point is to score more than the other team, but that's not all that matters.


Which is where we just fundamentally disagree. Which is fine.

As for me,







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WarSlamEagle
South Alabama Fan
Manchester United Fan
Member since Sep 2011
16292 posts

re: England and WC 2014


I'm not saying that it's not the most important thing, but it's not the only thing.

Just a fundamental difference of how we view the game and probably sports in general.

And, I agree, that's fine.






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RandySavage
Member since May 2012
8039 posts

re: England and WC 2014


quote:

Just a fundamental difference of how we view the game and probably sports in general.


Who did you want Auburn to hire?






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acgeaux129
USA Fan
We are BR
Member since Sep 2007
15011 posts

re: England and WC 2014


quote:

I don't root for England in any way nor do I give two fricks about how they do in tournaments.


Well that's all pretty much bull shite.

quote:

Once again, your premise discussed "optimism" which is something England fans should have plenty of.


Dude, every nation that is worth a frick has promising young talent. Y'all just named a bunch of names that are good in the same sense that I could name a bunch of HS football recruits and claim they are good. None of those guys are elite on the world stage yet. The fact that you put in guys like Andy Carroll, Defoe (past prime), Welbeck, Sturridge, Ox, Cleverley, etc. as implicitly key members of their attack is just crazy. There's no way a team on the level of the Top 5 or so even thinks about playing those guys in the WC.

It may be somewhat of a cop out or sound arrogant, but I really don't have the time or dedication to scope out all the best and brightest each national side has to work with in the future. And even though you do, you haven't put forth much of an argument that would make me think otherwise. Since I know I'm not as informed as others, I actually would have listened to good rebuttal, which was a main reason for the thread being created. Not to waste everyone's time by talking about France or claim I don't follow Arsenal enough because I don't think Walcott is very good outside of his limited role and capabilities.

The context of this thread is shaped by the notion that England should consistently be competing for titles in the WC or in the Euros. And they aren't. I don't care what the Liverpool fans on Reddit say or whatever.



This post was edited on 12/21 at 4:06 pm


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WarSlamEagle
South Alabama Fan
Manchester United Fan
Member since Sep 2011
16292 posts

re: England and WC 2014


I will say that Welbeck, for a 22 year old, has done well internationally. Five goals in a dozen appearances.

They won't be contenders this WC, but I think Beast is saying that most of the people on that list are young and are highly touted. It's going to be a transition year for the team, but they have young talent that could possibly make England a contender in 2016 and 2018 and beyond.






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acgeaux129
USA Fan
We are BR
Member since Sep 2007
15011 posts

re: England and WC 2014


I'm not hating on him or any of the other players except Carroll, but he's not an elite striker.

quote:

They won't be contenders this WC, but I think Beast is saying that most of the people on that list are young and are highly touted.


This idea is going to be exaggerated like crazy since we have more exposure to British press than any other country. And yes, I know they have had good youth teams lately.






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thenry712
Gonzaga Fan
Zasullia, Ukraine
Member since Nov 2008
15360 posts

re: England and WC 2014


You basically just said that the margin of victory in soccer is smaller than every other sport, yet you picked and chose certain incidents from other games without mentioning countless others. Statistics tell stories from games when the scoreline just tells you the end result.

In that 2010 Final do you not remember a certain Nigel De Jong kung-fu kick to Xabi Alonso's chest? An incident the referee later admitted should have been a red card. Do you not remember Iker Casillas making a slight touch off his heel to prevent Robben from scoring? What about Sketlenburg denying Sergio Ramos an early goal? What about Ramos missing an open header late? Or Jesus Navas denied by Heitenga?

Games are 90 minute narratives. The entire narrative doesn't come down to one incident. This is where stats tell the tale. Each stat represents an on field plot occurrence in the overall narrative.

quote:

This after winning a gritty semi 1-0 on a late header off a corner from their center back, how English of them.



As for the semifinal against Germany, Spain's persistant use of the short corner allowed them to score late on a direct corner. Germany sent players to defend close to the ball, and it left Puyol open in the box. How very Spanish of them.

quote:

This is much more legend than fact.



See what guys like Pele, Zidane, Xavi and Guardiola say about Scholes

quote:

Every recent tournament they have qualified for they have advanced to the knockout stages and generally given a good account of themselves, results wise, outside the 2nd half of a tainted Germany game in South Africa.


I wouldn't say good account of themselves. England performs average in group play and the poor in knockout rounds. In four knockout stage games (accounting for 420 minutes of play) in major tournaments since 2006, England have scored 2 goals. Unless Sven, Capello and Hodgson each set the objective to play to penalties at kickoff, that's an abysmal return.



This post was edited on 12/21 at 4:23 pm


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LSUSOBEAST1
LSU Fan
Member since Aug 2008
28436 posts

re: England and WC 2014


I don't know what kind of magical answer you are looking for. This thread is full of information answering your question. We have detailed why English teams haven't succeeded in the past, how the current generation is different, how the current generation can be better, the effect certain players can have on the squad AND have given you a list of 35+ players who can play a role in the near future. What else are you looking for?





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