So it turns out being gay is not in the DNA - Page 6 - TigerDroppings.com

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IceTiger
USA Fan
OKC
Member since Oct 2007
9170 posts

re: So it turns out being gay is not in the DNA


Cannibals, murderers, and rapists have an out if we are locked out of decision making for their actions, because they were "born that way"

The animal kingdom argument...dolphins brutally murder other dolphins and porpoises that encroach on their turf, as do apes and other "smarter" beasts in the wild...this is a dangerous game to say man has no self-control, or control over their own thoughts.

On the flip side, really, no harm no foul...it's just the idea that man has been superior to bast because we have a choice, is frankly being cast aside






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onmymedicalgrind
New Orleans Saints Fan
its goin' down in that SSB
Member since Dec 2012
4271 posts

re: So it turns out being gay is not in the DNA


Your mistake is assuming "external to DNA sequence" must mean choices made by the individual/his or her parent. Thats false. And its evident you don't understand epigenetics.

Epigenetic traits ARE HERITABLE. Again, they ARE HERITABLE TRAITS. The difference between these traits and classical genetic traits is that these genetic alterations (which are passed from generation to generation) are not caused by underlying changes in DNA nucleotide sequence.

Now someone like you with very little knowledge on the subject takes that to mean choices are being made by said individual which elicit a certain phenotype. People like myself and Cs who are well-versed in epigenetics know that there are many ways of altering gene expression without changing DNA sequence that has nothing to do with individual choices or external stimuli. Things such as gene silencing, imprinting, X-inactivation (in females), or histone modification--things I'm sure you've never heard of.

Look up Angelmann or Prader-Willi Syndrom--two examples of epigenetics which unfortunately in these cases leads to debilitating disorders--and tell me epigenetic traits aren't heritable and are simply individual choices.






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McLemore
Member since Dec 2003
12011 posts
 Online 

re: So it turns out being gay is not in the DNA


quote:

heritable traits can be controlled? How?


is that a serious question?

eta plural



This post was edited on 12/12 at 8:13 pm


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League Champs
Bayou Self
Member since Oct 2012
3115 posts

re: So it turns out being gay is not in the DNA


quote:

Now someone like you with very little knowledge on the subject takes that to mean choices are being made by said individual which elicit a certain phenotype.

Someone like me ... and the authors of their study, who I can damn well state know more on the topic that you, or your alter.

The belief is that the gene is encoded in the womb, not before. Their words not mine. If further testing cannot verify that theory, then what is left? Post-natal epigenetic encoding. Meaning purely environmental.

The authors aren't certain, I'm not certain, but I know that you for damn sure you don't know when the epigenetic code for gay is established.

Now, you go look up obesity and epigenetics and tell me that behavior cannot result in epigenetic traits that are then passed on.






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Cs
Member since Aug 2008
3694 posts

re: So it turns out being gay is not in the DNA


quote:

The belief is that the gene is encoded in the womb, not before. Their words not mine.


Link?






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League Champs
Bayou Self
Member since Oct 2012
3115 posts

re: So it turns out being gay is not in the DNA


quote:

Link?

LINK
quote:

that sensitivity to sex hormones during development in the womb is regulated differently for homosexual and heterosexual people. They built a mathematical model to test their ideas, published in The Quarterly Review of Biology.

quote:

While the study of genetics looks at the structure of DNA, ‘epigenetics’ concerns the way in which genes are switched ‘on’ or ‘off’, as a consequence of either external or internal stimuli – from nutrition and environment to specific biological molecules – called epigenetic switches.







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onmymedicalgrind
New Orleans Saints Fan
its goin' down in that SSB
Member since Dec 2012
4271 posts

re: So it turns out being gay is not in the DNA


Because of your limited background/understanding of epigenetics, your taking the obesity and honey bee example and inappropriately applying it.

Again, in the article you posted, they mention several times that homosexuality is hereditary, even stating they believe it is passed down to offspring of opposite sex. Yet you start a thread with the title "So it turns out being gay is not in the DNA." How can something be passed down to offspring if it is not encoded in the DNA?

I will repeat myself because you're oobviously not understanding this: epigenetic traits ARE heritable just like classical genetic traits. Only difference is genetic traits are rooted in specific DNA sequences. Epigenetic traits center around modifications to DNA that alter their phenotypic expression.

You take this to mean "purely environmental." What I'm trying to tell you is that is not the case. Altering the methlyation/acetylation of DNA histones will alter the way corresponding genes are transcribed and then further translated--changing phenotype. The RANDOM process of X-inactivation in females can also lead to disease phenotypes in offspring that were never present in parents. Likewise for the phenomenon known as parental/maternal imprinting. These are all examples of epigenetics that have nothing to do with individual choices.

Did you look up any info on Angelmann or Prader-Willi Syndrome?









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Cs
Member since Aug 2008
3694 posts

re: So it turns out being gay is not in the DNA


Oh, that's disappointing. I thought you were going to provide an actual link from the study itself.

Here, allow me to do that.

quote:

Because most of the genes responsible for this asymmetric response to androgens are autosomal (see next section), they must be transregulated in response to the XX versus XY sex chromosome karyotype. Transregulation can occur in many ways, but recent studies demonstrate that the sex chromosome karyotype alone, independent of sex hormones, epigenetically regulates many autosomal genes (reviewed in Wijchers and Festenstein 2011). Epigenetic modi?cation (i.e., methylation, histone tail modi?cations, and nucleosome repositioning) is emerging as a pivotal factor controlling gene expression. For example, variation in the level of a single histone modi?cation (trimethylation of lysine residue-4 on histone-3; the H3K4me3 epi-mark) of gene promoters can account for almost 50% of the variation in genome-wide gene expression levels in the early mouse embryo (Mikkelsen et al. 2007). From these studies and others (see below), we conclude that XX- and XY-speci?c epi-marks almost certainly contribute to the differential sensitivity to androgens of XX and XY fetuses (Figure 1B)


"We conclude that XX- and XY-specific epi-marks almost certainly contribute to the differential sensitivity to androgens of XX and XY fetuses".

And how do the researchers define "epi-marks"?

quote:

We will use the term epi-marks to denote changes in chromatin structure that in?uence the transcription rate of genes (coding and noncoding, such as miRNAs), including nucleosome repositioning, DNA methylation, and/or modi?cation of histone tails, but not including changes in DNA sequence. It is now well established that a parent’s epi-marks sometimes carryover across generations and in?uence the phenotypes of offspring


Fluctuations in the levels of DNA methylation, nucleosome repositioning, or changes in chromatin structure are all secondary to alterations to other genes.

Epigenetics is genetics. It's genes regulating the expression of other genes. The very fact that some of these epigenetic traits are transgenerational is because they are, in fact, encoded by genes.



This post was edited on 12/12 at 9:42 pm


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League Champs
Bayou Self
Member since Oct 2012
3115 posts

re: So it turns out being gay is not in the DNA


quote:

You take this to mean "purely environmental." What I'm trying to tell you is that is not the case.

I do not. I was merely postulating

The article CLEARLY says that there is no, and never will be, genetic links to gay behavior. They theorize that it is at some point epigenetic.

They are not certain as to when the information is changed. That is what I was postulating about. They presume it occurs in the womb (already linked), but more testing is required.

Yes epigenetic traits can be inherited, but more often their causation is environmental, and then become hereditary. I am just suggesting that in due course the gay epigene will be viewed as caused by environmental factor; due to the low concurence in identical twins. I surmize that environment plays a bigger role, making it more of a choice.






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cwill
New Orleans Saints Fan
Member since Jan 2005
23923 posts

re: So it turns out being gay is not in the DNA


Nice post, but its been well established that league champ is a big league tard.





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Cs
Member since Aug 2008
3694 posts

re: So it turns out being gay is not in the DNA


quote:

The article CLEARLY says that there is no, and never will be, genetic links to gay behavior


You're confused by the connotations of "genetic". When they say there is no "genetic" link, they're referring to a specific nucleotide sequence that is explicitly responsible for homosexuality.

Which is partially wrong, according to the study to which you're referring. From their paper -

quote:

Our model does not preclude some
mutations being associated with homosexuality because it is already established that
some mutations affecting androgen signaling (e.g., those contributing to CAH or
CAI) can strongly in?uence the level of
gonad-trait discordance for sexual orientation.



This post was edited on 12/12 at 9:26 pm


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onmymedicalgrind
New Orleans Saints Fan
its goin' down in that SSB
Member since Dec 2012
4271 posts

re: So it turns out being gay is not in the DNA


Somebody who has heard of epigenetics before reading this very simplified, dumbed-down article





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League Champs
Bayou Self
Member since Oct 2012
3115 posts

re: So it turns out being gay is not in the DNA


quote:

cwill

Sorry, but I must have overlooked your link. Where again is it?






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onmymedicalgrind
New Orleans Saints Fan
its goin' down in that SSB
Member since Dec 2012
4271 posts

re: So it turns out being gay is not in the DNA


I'm slowly starting to find that out (and by slowly I mean rapidly after each post )





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Roaad
LSU Fan
Bushrod Owns
Member since Aug 2006
52230 posts

re: So it turns out being gay is not in the DNA


quote:

<no pun>
bullshite






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League Champs
Bayou Self
Member since Oct 2012
3115 posts

re: So it turns out being gay is not in the DNA


You should stop
quote:

Even if his theory is proved true, Gavrilets said epigenetics may be only part of the equation when it comes to a person's sexual preference. Environmental and cultural factors may still contribute to a person's lifestyle, he added.







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mmcgrath
LSU Fan
New Jersey
Member since Feb 2010
4060 posts

re: So it turns out being gay is not in the DNA


trolls will troll. Have to thank him for the link to the article though. Good to read up on some of the research going on nowadays.





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VOR
New Orleans Pelicans Fan
New Orleans
Member since Apr 2009
40648 posts

re: So it turns out being gay is not in the DNA


quote:

So it turns out being gay is not in the DNA
According to scientists and US News and World Report, its epigenetic. Its like passing obesity from parent to child. Something that essentially can be controlled if one chooses to.


Your summary of the article is misleading.






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VOR
New Orleans Pelicans Fan
New Orleans
Member since Apr 2009
40648 posts

re: So it turns out being gay is not in the DNA


quote:

So you dont know the definition of epigenetic it appears?



It appears that you do not.






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VOR
New Orleans Pelicans Fan
New Orleans
Member since Apr 2009
40648 posts

re: So it turns out being gay is not in the DNA


quote:

Yes epigenetic traits can be inherited, but more often their causation is environmental, and then become hereditary. I am just suggesting that in due course the gay epigene will be viewed as caused by environmental factor; due to the low concurence in identical twins. I surmize that environment plays a bigger role, making it more of a choice.



Dude, the more I read, the more I realize you're totally full of shite. Sorry I wasted time in your thread.






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