Zimmerman back in the news | Page 12 | TigerDroppings.com

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tigeraddict
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Mar 2007
4839 posts

re: Zimmerman back in the news


Martin shouldn't have gone to the convience store to get what he needed for "Purlpe Drank"






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Ace Midnight
LSU Fan
Currently asymptomatic
Member since Dec 2006
33551 posts

re: Zimmerman back in the news


Let's set aside the law for a second and look at the facts (and some necessary assumptions):

F: Zimmerman did not recognize Martin
A: Martin did not recongize Zimmerman

F: Zimmerman asked authorities if he should continue his surveillance and was told no.
A: He complied with this request/order and was returning to his vehicle until shortly before the confrontation

F: The two men became close enough to exchange words and engage in a physical altercation.
A: Martin deviated from his route home to intercept Zimmerman

F: During the struggle, Martin was fatally shot by Zimmeran
A: All, or certainly most, of Zimmerman's injuries were incurred prior to the gunshot

Remaining questions -

Was Zimmerman conducting his surveillance primarily on foot (dismounted) or was he alternating mounted(vehicular)/dismounted? This is important, because if he was not conducting much of the surveillance mounted, Martin went out of his way to escalate to a confrontation. If Martin was mounted shortly before the altercation (or had been following Martin significantly in his vehicle), his actions may have brought them together.

If Martin really felt threatened, why didn't he take the direct route home OR call the authorities?

Okay, we've got that out of the way - the legal questions will depend much on Florida law, which is why the "stand-your-ground" law is implicated here.

Prior to their confrontation, there is no evidence (that I have seen) of illegality by either Martin or Zimmerman - there may have been situations where either committed a technical trespass, but without intent, it seems clear that Martin intended on going to the store and returning home. Zimmerman was following a young person whom he did not recognize, in the aftermath of increased crime in the neighborhood.

The confrontation clearly happened. The only question is who was the aggressor - IF it is true that Martin only suffered injuries to his knuckles and the GSW, then Zimmerman's story looks better. It is possible for a guy to pick a fight and not inflict injuries, but with the obvious injuries to both the front and back of his head, requiring some medical treatment in both cases, Zimmerman's base story of:

"I was going back to my vehicle, Martin approached me, attacked me, and I felt I had no other option but to shoot him." - rings true, at least in that was his perspective.

Whether he had the right to shoot Martin under these circumstances remains a valid legal question, but the "Stalking, hunting, execution" story (clearly unsupportable with these facts) that was peddled early in the cycle, with the deceptive pictures of Martin as a child have poisoned the well as to whether there can ever be a satisfactory resolution of this - frankly described as a - tragedy.

Did Zimmerman have the overall responsibility for creating this charged atmosphere? Certainly for the first part of this situation, Martin was much more in the "minding his own business" mode. Did Martin have the "last clear chance" to avoid the tragic consequences of this? Probably, but this is yet another complicated question in a complicated case.

Personally, not having a lot of experience with Florida civil law, my gut instinct is Zimmerman walks on any criminal charges, but incurs civil liability (ala Orenthal James Simpson).

There is little evidence or motive of murderous intent. If he is criminally liable, it will be in the flavor of a weapon charge and/or manslaughter. He could be held civilly responsible under a number of theories, depending on the evidence and Florida tort law.







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dantes69
Boise State Fan
Boise, Id.
Member since Aug 2011
473 posts

re: Zimmerman back in the news


he deserves a medal





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Antonio Moss
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Mar 2006
29051 posts

re: Zimmerman back in the news


quote:

Doesn't matter who starts the fight. If one of the parties begins to fight in a way that a reasonable person would fear for their life, they are permitted to defend themselves.


That's not the law in Louisiana.






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sugar71
UCLA Fan
baton rouge
Member since Jun 2012
1876 posts

re: Zimmerman back in the news


I'm shocked that the TD is a huge fan of a coward like Zimmerman

Just shocked.



This post was edited on 12/4 at 10:54 am


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ShortyRob
LSU Fan
Huntsville, AL
Member since Oct 2008
27661 posts

re: Zimmerman back in the news


quote:

I'm shocked that the TD is a huge fan of a coward like Zimmerman
I thing you don't understand the term "fan".

I know jack shite about GZ. He may be a shitty human being for all I know.

NOTHING I've posted in this thread has placed ANY value judgement on what kind of dude GZ is or even if he was smart that night.

You are confused.






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Antonio Moss
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Mar 2006
29051 posts

re: Zimmerman back in the news


quote:

I'm shocked that the TD is a huge fan of a coward like Zimmerman


It has little to do with being a fan. People who are getting their head slammed into the ground have a right to defend themselves regardless of their personality.







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IceTiger
USA Fan
OKC
Member since Oct 2007
9236 posts

re: Zimmerman back in the news


That's about the most ignorant emotional response ive seen...

We are logically determining whether Z is guilty of M2 from what we know, and it just doesn't fit...

Chdck your weakness at the door, this is a bigboy thread






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JohnnyKilroy
New Orleans Pelicans Fan
Member since Oct 2012
8559 posts

re: Zimmerman back in the news


Some relevant FL case law:

The aggressor in a personal difficulty can not acquit himself of liability for its consequences on the ground of self defense, unless after having begun the difficulty he in good faith declines the combat and his adversary has become the aggressor. King v. State, 54 Fla. 47, 44 So. 941 (1907); Rivers v. State, 75 Fla. 401, 78 So. 343 (1918).

Accused, to successfully excuse homicide on ground of self-defense, must have been free from fault, or receded after having been aggressor. Gaff v. State, 103 Fla. 642, 138 So. 48 (1931).

Where a man has been threatened he may go wherever his business calls him, but he has not the right to lie in wait for and slay his adversary; neither may one who seeks a person who intends to kill him, or otherwise bring the danger upon himself, avail himself of the plea of self defense. Barnhill v. State, 56 Fla. 16, 48 So. 251 (1908).






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IceTiger
USA Fan
OKC
Member since Oct 2007
9236 posts

re: Zimmerman back in the news


According to this precedent, going back to his van and not injuring TA will likely get him off M2





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JohnnyKilroy
New Orleans Pelicans Fan
Member since Oct 2012
8559 posts

re: Zimmerman back in the news


At this point, based on the evidence available I think he escapes M2, but may be convicted of a lesser charge (manslaughter).

I'd have to see some new evidence to convince me that a murder conviction is likely.






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mmtsanders
LSU Fan
Member since Nov 2011
252 posts

re: Zimmerman back in the news


quote:

The KEY FACT that is NOT in dispute is that Travon was less than 100 yards from his house at the outset of a 3 minute phone call. This fact BY ITSELF tells us that Trayvon made a CHOICE to not go home because if had just gone home, he'd have been there for about 2 minutes before the confrontation. To me, this answers the question, "who confronted who" to a near certainty.


Once again, Zimmerman says he was walking back to the truck and he was attacked. His side of the story. How do any of us know if he followed the 911 operator's instructions to return to the truck.

Once again, there are always to sides to every story and, from my experience, those sides usually don't usually match up.

You might be right that if the DUDE had just gone inside this may not have happened. However, how many normal folks would have gotten out of the safety of their vehicles to follow somebody that looked suspicious?

Your right being over zealous doesn't make it legit target to get your arse kicked. However, when your over zealous enough to ignore the recommended guidelines of what defines the "neighborhood watch" program means then you put yourself at risk.

How many people to you see on a daily basis walking around with a gun straped to their waste?? How many people do you know would get out of the safety of their vehicle to pursue a suspicious person?

My idea of self defense may be quite different from most others. Zimmerman may in fact felt like he was in immediate danger and felt like this was self defense. However, my thinking is that he should have used some common sense and stayed in the vehicle, called the cops and let them enforce the law. When he decided to get out of the vehicle to investigate a suspicious person while carrying a weapon, he put himself in a position that could or could not have a positive outcome. If I was a juror, I would look at his past history of calling 911 and this incident, if it was allowed in a court of law, and I would not buy the self defense theory.






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Bandit30
LSU Fan
Lafayette
Member since Sep 2011
1096 posts

re: Zimmerman back in the news


I am sure I would dislike GZ he is a liberal just like you. But I still support his right to defend himself and yours.





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IceTiger
USA Fan
OKC
Member since Oct 2007
9236 posts

re: Zimmerman back in the news


In alaska and north dakota, everyone is strapped...and just because you dont see it...doesnt mean they dont have it...

Concealed carry is legal everywhere except illinois






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JohnnyKilroy
New Orleans Pelicans Fan
Member since Oct 2012
8559 posts

re: Zimmerman back in the news


quote:

My idea of self defense may be quite different from most others. Zimmerman may in fact felt like he was in immediate danger and felt like this was self defense. However, my thinking is that he should have used some common sense and stayed in the vehicle, called the cops and let them enforce the law. When he decided to get out of the vehicle to investigate a suspicious person while carrying a weapon, he put himself in a position that could or could not have a positive outcome. If I was a juror, I would look at his past history of calling 911 and this incident, if it was allowed in a court of law, and I would not buy the self defense theory.



It's a near guarantee that there will be a lot more evidence introduced in court than we the public have knowledge of.


This is why it's stupid to say definitively he is innocent or guilty. We only have SOME of the evidence. There may be evidence introduced in court that confirms GZ's story. There may be evidence introduced in court that completely refutes GZ's story. We don't know.






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IceTiger
USA Fan
OKC
Member since Oct 2007
9236 posts

re: Zimmerman back in the news


Florida law precedent states even if he was an aggressor, if he didnt initiate contact, he is no longer the aggressor...whether you "buy" it or not...

That's clearly a bias...and with the combination of TA's stalking him (wasting time) and his supposed actions,two things suggest TA stalked and assaulted Z






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ShortyRob
LSU Fan
Huntsville, AL
Member since Oct 2008
27661 posts

re: Zimmerman back in the news


quote:

How do any of us know if he followed the 911 operator's instructions to return to the truck.
We don't. But we DO KNOW beyond any reasonable doubt that Trayvon turned back because if he hadn't, he gets home in sub 30 seconds. PERIOD

quote:

However, how many normal folks would have gotten out of the safety of their vehicles to follow somebody that looked suspicious?
From a good distance to see where they are going so they may tell the cops? I suspect a lot of people might do that. They weren't in close proximity to each other.

quote:

However, when your over zealous enough to ignore the recommended guidelines of what defines the "neighborhood watch" program means then you put yourself at risk.
I don't understand the "however" part here. Your prior sentence still stood. Dumb or not, he didn't do anything that justified getting his arse kicked.

quote:

How many people to you see on a daily basis walking around with a gun straped to their waste??
Not many. But I do know some and when I was in Alaska, I saw it all the time.

quote:

How many people do you know would get out of the safety of their vehicle to pursue a suspicious person?
He never said he was going to "pursue" him. He simply wanted to be able to see where TM was going. He was at some distance and armed. Why would this be a big deal to him? Wouldn't be to me.

quote:

My idea of self defense may be quite different from most others.
How so?

quote:

Zimmerman may in fact felt like he was in immediate danger and felt like this was self defense. However, my thinking is that he should have used some common sense and stayed in the vehicle, called the cops and let them enforce the law. When he decided to get out of the vehicle to investigate a suspicious person while carrying a weapon, he put himself in a position that could or could not have a positive outcome. If I was a juror, I would look at his past history of calling 911 and this incident, if it was allowed in a court of law, and I would not buy the self defense theory.


The only question to me is simple. Who actually INITIATED the physical confrontation. The FACT that TM doubled back tells me the answer.

Following someone, even if dumb, is NOT instigating a PHYSICAL confrontation. Hell, if I walked up to you and said "hey, you're not from this neighborhood, what are you doing" and you got pissed and started to pummell me, I didn't fricking start that shite.

And THAT would be if I walked up to your ass. So, following damned sure aint "instigating".






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Ace Midnight
LSU Fan
Currently asymptomatic
Member since Dec 2006
33551 posts

re: Zimmerman back in the news


quote:

Once again, Zimmerman says he was walking back to the truck and he was attacked. His side of the story. How do any of us know if he followed the 911 operator's instructions to return to the truck.


Come on - the fight was right near Zimmerman's vehicle, and it happened after the call. I did posit the question of whether or not his surveillance was mounted, dismounted or a combination. If he resumed his surveillance, mounted, then encountered Martin immediately prior to the engagement, I think he bears more responsibility, than, say, he was discontinuing his operation due to instructions from 911 and was returning to his vehicle when encountered by Martin who had, obviously, turned back to confront him - I'm not saying Zimmerman has totally clean hands at this point, but it is less than if he continued to pursue Martin.

Again, I find no illegality prior to the altercation, by either guy, based on the information we have.

For the record, I doubt I would have liked Zimmerman much, either.



This post was edited on 12/4 at 1:19 pm


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NC_Tigah
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2003
54310 posts

re: Zimmerman back in the news


quote:

he was discontinuing his operation due to instructions from 911 and was returning to his vehicle when encountered by Martin who had, obviously, turned back to confront him - I'm not saying Zimmerman has totally clean hands at this point, but it is less than if he continued to pursue Martin.
Have you seen the video of George Zimmerman reenacting the fatal fight with Trayvon Martin for the police, on location the next day?






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RogerTheShrubber
LSU Fan
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
94558 posts

re: Zimmerman back in the news


quote:

I'm shocked that the TD is a huge fan of a coward like Zimmerman


Just as I am shocked at how you interpret "being a fan"






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