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dstone12
East Carolina Fan
Member since Jan 2007
4455 posts

Fully Auto Shotguns for Marines/Army

Just curious why the US has not adopted the AA12 or the KSG (not fully, but still stout).



Just one question.....

Would a platoon want to go to cqc with 5.56 AR's vs the Taliban with AA12s? Or vice versa.

Look at the question with all things being equal:
-optics, rails, accessories, etc
-equal training
-optimal/versital rounds


So much lead delivery.....this is a good thought provoking question, no?









Maybe not for the outdoor board, but where else would this go?
This post was edited on 12/3 at 11:26 pm



INFIDEL
LSU Fan
The couch
Member since Aug 2006
14306 posts

re: Fully Auto Shotguns for Marines/Army
Reliability? Bulky ammo? Range ineffective in theatre?

Ksg is a turd from what I hear.


CaptainsWafer
USA Fan
Bone it like you own it.
Member since Feb 2006
43221 posts
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re: Fully Auto Shotguns for Marines/Army
quote:

Look at the question with all things being equal:
-optics, rails, accessories, etc
-equal training
-optimal/versital rounds



Can't because they aren't.


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dstone12
East Carolina Fan
Member since Jan 2007
4455 posts

re: Fully Auto Shotguns for Marines/Army
i did not know that ksg was a turd....


You have to think that the AR's fear factor is minimal vs a 12 ga.


I know fear factor doesn't put bodies on the ground, but i have read that they don't even respect the sound of a 5.56




Either way, is there any logic for putting two of these in a platoon for more than just door breaching?

Do you think that they can work with or develop these in the next 20 years to have a proper spot in cqc?



This post was edited on 12/3 at 11:33 pm


bapple
LSU Fan
Capital City
Member since Oct 2010
8304 posts

re: Fully Auto Shotguns for Marines/Army
quote:

Just curious why the US has not adopted the AA12 or the KSG (not fully, but still stout).


Those are two very different weapons. The KSG is a double-magazine-tubed, bullpup, pump 12 gauge shotgun. The AA12 is an automatic, open-breach 12 gauge shotgun.

Also, the AA12 is extremely bulky. It may be good for medium range, but for close range, the KSG would actually be a lot better. But the KSG design is not proven like the Remington 870 or Mossberg 500.


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faxis
LSU Fan
La.
Member since Oct 2007
7773 posts

re: Fully Auto Shotguns for Marines/Army
Aren't shotguns geneva convention prohibited?


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CaptainsWafer
USA Fan
Bone it like you own it.
Member since Feb 2006
43221 posts
Online

re: Fully Auto Shotguns for Marines/Army
quote:

I know fear factor doesn't put bodies on the ground, but i have read that they don't even respect the sound of a 5.56



Hard to respect the sound when your head splits before you hear it.


dstone12
East Carolina Fan
Member since Jan 2007
4455 posts

re: Fully Auto Shotguns for Marines/Army
quote:

Hard to respect the sound when your head splits before you hear it.



GAO reports say that there is only 1 death per 250000 rounds in Middle East conflicts, so you know what i am getting at....albeit, caliber not defined in these numbers.



Either way, thanks for the answers.


This is not as hot of a discussion like "5.56 vs 6.5 G vs 6.8 SPC" but just wondering because of the amount of lead in the air.
This post was edited on 12/3 at 11:39 pm


bapple
LSU Fan
Capital City
Member since Oct 2010
8304 posts

re: Fully Auto Shotguns for Marines/Army
quote:

Reports say that there is only 1 death per 250000 rounds in Middle East conflicts, so you know what i am getting at.


This doesn't have to do with the lethality of the rounds. It has to do with suppressive fire. When moving positions, fellow soldiers lay cover fire so the enemy has to take cover. These rarely hit human targets and are used to distract. That's why the number is so high.

quote:

Aren't shotguns geneva convention prohibited?


It's actually the Hague conventions that made certain war laws. Here's some info...

LINK
This post was edited on 12/3 at 11:40 pm


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CaptainsWafer
USA Fan
Bone it like you own it.
Member since Feb 2006
43221 posts
Online

re: Fully Auto Shotguns for Marines/Army
That's a lot of shooting, holy heck


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Grunt Actual
LSU Fan
Member since Mar 2012
1572 posts

re: Fully Auto Shotguns for Marines/Army
Even in a CQB scenario it's not practical. If you were just gonna go in, short room the fricker and spray everyone down, you might as well save yourself the trouble and just toss grenades into every room.


choupiquesushi
LSU Fan
yaton rouge
Member since Jun 2006
13799 posts

re: Fully Auto Shotguns for Marines/Army
Reliability issues w autoloaders.....at least from the navy side......


Very limited us in CQB and such.......

And whe lots of ammo is needed well...you do the math..

In some cases it is a blessing....by and large ya really don't want to get that close to the enemy....on purpose


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DrTyger
LSU Fan
Lake Charles
Member since Oct 2009
22122 posts

re: Fully Auto Shotguns for Marines/Army
Well, the AA12 has an effective range of 100m. Most firefights in Afghanistan occur well beyond that.

Also, you go through a lot of ammo really quickly with an automatic shotgun. You can unload a 20 round drum in in about 8 seconds. Can be quite a waste of ammo when one well placed round from an 870 would be just as effective.


INFIDEL
LSU Fan
The couch
Member since Aug 2006
14306 posts

re: Fully Auto Shotguns for Marines/Army
One of the reasons for the 5.56's short comings in Afghanistan is its range. So, your shotgun proposition would not be a good idea.


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CaptainsWafer
USA Fan
Bone it like you own it.
Member since Feb 2006
43221 posts
Online

re: Fully Auto Shotguns for Marines/Army
That's a lot of grenades to BR carrying around.


INFIDEL
LSU Fan
The couch
Member since Aug 2006
14306 posts

re: Fully Auto Shotguns for Marines/Army
If every war could be played on play station.........


Grunt Actual
LSU Fan
Member since Mar 2012
1572 posts

re: Fully Auto Shotguns for Marines/Army
It makes about as much sense as carrying a fully auto shot gun into a house. Plus idgaf I'll mere the pvt's carry all of them


CaptainsWafer
USA Fan
Bone it like you own it.
Member since Feb 2006
43221 posts
Online

re: Fully Auto Shotguns for Marines/Army


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choupiquesushi
LSU Fan
yaton rouge
Member since Jun 2006
13799 posts

re: Fully Auto Shotguns for Marines/Army
It does have some practical uses in ship board stuff...

Allnthe ones I sqw back in the 80s..were moss bergs...
This post was edited on 12/3 at 11:50 pm


DrTyger
LSU Fan
Lake Charles
Member since Oct 2009
22122 posts

re: Fully Auto Shotguns for Marines/Army
Then the Asians would rule all.


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