The Time Table for the Dollar - Page 2 - TigerDroppings.com

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foshizzle
LSU Fan
Washington DC metro
Member since Mar 2008
29665 posts

re: The Time Table for the Dollar


quote:

quote:
Someone has to control the currency



quote:

I disagree.


There was a time in US history (the so-called "free banking" period in the early 19th century) when there was no central bank and in fact banks issued their own promissory notes.

The problems with this are numerous. First off, every person is now in the position of having to judge how good a particular bank's "currency" is. If you have a ten dollar bill drawn on Bank One and another drawn on Bank Two, are they really of equal value? Will a grocery store agree with you?

Having a single issuing authority removes these problems. Bitcoin has something like this as well, even though there is no human authority the core issuing rules are a substitute for that. In a sense, Bitcoin has a "central authority" that can't change the rules.






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TheHiddenFlask
Clemson Fan
The Welsh red light district
Member since Jul 2008
16776 posts

re: The Time Table for the Dollar


quote:

Your definition of "economic good" may be good for the here and now, but maybe not so much for the there and then.


I can respect that. I would just have to hear some better idea than what we have.

I agree with not wanting this to devolve into a bitcoin argument, but even bitcoin is governed by a set of rules. Are you for a single global currency?

quote:

I don't care for gold at all. I don't understand why any one would ever consider it valuable, to be honest.




quote:

If those are my only choices, then I'd pick #2 and #3, but I don't understand why I would have to choose any of those anyway.



It's the impossible trinity. The problem that all countries have with banking. You Chose what the US has, which is the most logical, IMO.

Here's a 80 second explanation. LINK






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WikiTiger
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2007
40721 posts

re: The Time Table for the Dollar


quote:

but even bitcoin is governed by a set of rules


Right, but as you admitted in your previous post, the rules are unchangeable, at least by a central authority. Which, IMO, is a great thing.

quote:

Are you for a single global currency?


If it was something like Bitcoin, then yes. But I don't necessarily think it should be the only currency. I like the idea of currency competition. If Bitcoin is preferable to government backed currencies, then people will naturally move to it, otherwise they will avoid it. The question then becomes one of whether or not the central bankers and governments will allow for that kind of currency competition because...

...if Bitcoin is truly a preferable currency, then it would jeopardize the central banking system.

quote:

It's the impossible trinity. The problem that all countries have with banking. You Chose what the US has, which is the most logical, IMO.

Here's a 80 second explanation


I watched the video, and it makes total sense to me, but I was left with only one thought:

It's still an artificially created problem due to the existence of nation states. So calling it "impossible" is a bit misleading, IMO. "Impossible in the current worldwide political paradigm trinity" is more accurate, but not as catchy.






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Blakely Bimbo
Alabama Fan
Member since Dec 2010
1067 posts

re: The Time Table for the Dollar


The dollar and American Monetary system is backed by:

1.The intellectual and individual labor of its citizens
2. The ability to tax and collect taxes.
3. Most comprehensive legal system in the world concerning property and intellectual property rights.
4. The best Central Bank in the World.
5. Strong Military.








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slutiger5
Southeastern LA Fan
Parroquias de Florida
Member since May 2007
8187 posts
 Online 

re: The Time Table for the Dollar


Well like I said, I am in the process of understanding economics and business. What I have read may be all lunatic literature but most of it made sense. However I don't necessarily agree with a gold standard based off its use throughout time. I also don't agree with the complete absence of government in the market. But printing money or moving assets to save dying companies makes no sense to me. It delays or spreads the tragedy to other competitors. It's those moves that make me question the role of the government/federal reserve in the economy.





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TheHiddenFlask
Clemson Fan
The Welsh red light district
Member since Jul 2008
16776 posts

re: The Time Table for the Dollar


quote:

But printing money


It doesn't seem that you understand what "printing money" means. It's not your fault, it's the fault of the alarmists and the politicians for misusing the crap out of the phrase.

Do some reading about the operations of the FOMC.






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TheHiddenFlask
Clemson Fan
The Welsh red light district
Member since Jul 2008
16776 posts

re: The Time Table for the Dollar


quote:

WikiTiger


You make a series of great points, but I think that even you would admit that some of them are Utopian. In reality, there are real dangers in a currency that doesn't have someone in control, as there is no one to be held accountable in the occurrence of their failure.

While your premise of competitive currency would allow people to choose which currency to hold and therefore allow people to eliminate that risk, you're completely and totally overrating the intelligence of the human race. Most Wal Mart cashiers have a really hard time making change. They can't do basic arithmetic and it's a part of their daily duties. Do you think they would be able to effectively monitor the risks associated with multiple currencies? I'm going with no.



quote:


I watched the video, and it makes total sense to me, but I was left with only one thought:

It's still an artificially created problem due to the existence of nation states. So calling it "impossible" is a bit misleading, IMO. "Impossible in the current worldwide political paradigm trinity" is more accurate, but not as catchy.




You win.



I don't think I've ever said that on this site before.






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WikiTiger
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2007
40721 posts

re: The Time Table for the Dollar


quote:

You win.    I don't think I've ever said that on this site before. 


I sense sarcasm.

To clarify, I was thinking in terms of a global currency like bitcoin, which if it gained traction on a global scale would be immune to the impossibly trinity, don't you agree?






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TheHiddenFlask
Clemson Fan
The Welsh red light district
Member since Jul 2008
16776 posts

re: The Time Table for the Dollar


quote:

I sense sarcasm.



Not really. You make some good points. You are describing a system which I did not consider an option. I think it has some inherent flaws which make it unsustainable, but in all fairness to you, you have similar legitimate concerns about the current system.

quote:

To clarify, I was thinking in terms of a global currency like bitcoin, which if it gained traction on a global scale would be immune to the impossibly trinity, don't you agree?


A global currency would inherently give up the sovereign monetary policy, unless there is a one world government. Agreed?






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el duderino III
Texas Fan
austin
Member since Jul 2011
1513 posts

re: The Time Table for the Dollar


this is part of what I was trying to explain to you the other day. what bitcoin or it's successors may very well end up doing is forcing free capital mobility on developing countries, giving them only the choice between option 1 and 2. I don't think the economics world has really taken notice of the implications yet.

eta there's actually a growing trend towards arguing for more capital controls, and they might be ten or twenty years away from being impossible to enforce.



This post was edited on 12/4 at 1:14 am


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BennyAndTheInkJets
Arkansas Fan
NYC
Member since Nov 2010
3843 posts

re: The Time Table for the Dollar


quote:

WikiTiger

Why do you think bitcoin, or any single global currency, would work? The notion that a single currency benefiting the majority of sovereigns that use it is a very, very misconceived notion. The only way a single monetary union works is with a single fiscal union.

ETA: I know you said you didn't want this discussion to devolve to that but I'm really curious what you believe the benefits are to it.



This post was edited on 12/4 at 7:48 am


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WikiTiger
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2007
40721 posts

re: The Time Table for the Dollar


quote:

Why do you think bitcoin, or any single global currency, would work?


Bitcoin will work for multiple reasons:

1) free of government control and manipulation
2) inflation protection
3) inability of governments to freeze 'accounts' or seize assets
4) it's not just a currency but also a transaction system
5) it's not limited by political borders

etc...

quote:

The notion that a single currency benefiting the majority of sovereigns that use it is a very, very misconceived notion.


Sovereigns won't use it. They will hate it. It's the people that will use it. Sovereigns will attempt to stifle it.

quote:

The only way a single monetary union works is with a single fiscal union.


I disagree.

quote:

but I'm really curious what you believe the benefits are to it.


It's a currency and transaction system that offers anonymity, low or no cost transactions, and security.

I've been posting a lot about it lately, mostly on the Poli Board. I'm very fascinated with it, but I also acknowledge it's in its infancy and will likely take 10 years to even get close to critical mass.






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TheHiddenFlask
Clemson Fan
The Welsh red light district
Member since Jul 2008
16776 posts

re: The Time Table for the Dollar


The one problem with bitcoin (and every system like it) is if there is no governing authority, how do you stop/reverse fraud?





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BennyAndTheInkJets
Arkansas Fan
NYC
Member since Nov 2010
3843 posts

re: The Time Table for the Dollar


The problem is that the exchange rate for bitcoin is still based off of another currency, the dollar in this case. If you allow bitcoin to be a global currency then it won't have a base for the exchange rate and trade equilibrium will be broken as we know it. Trade will be based simply on who can provide an item for the lowest price, which will absolutely ravage developed economies' labor markets. Current standards of living will fall beyond dramatically.

I have some issues with the reasons you pointed out.

1) free of government control and manipulation
- There is no such thing and there will never be such a thing. Power and money will have influence, that is one of the closest things to a certainty I've found in this world.
2) inflation protection
- While there is still a base currency, yes. But as a global currency you become the base and if there are no other currencies not only does inflation/deflation not exist as we know it, trade equilibrium as we know it ceases as well(see above).
3) inability of governments to freeze 'accounts' or seize assets
- I think you seriously underestimate human nature's thirst for power.
4) it's not just a currency but also a transaction system
- How is it any different from book order entry trading systems?
5) it's not limited by political borders
- The euro isn't either, which brings me to the point...
quote:

I disagree.

The euro is the perfect example of needing fiscal authorities in cooperation with monetary authorities. The basic concept is two completely different things should be valued differently. Entities that take two completely different paths in terms of competitiveness and fiscal responsibility should not be valued the same way. The euro is on its way to a fiscal union within the next decade, but that won't solve the underlying issues of competitiveness for the continent. However, that is a completely separate discussion. My main point is that humans (and in turn sovereigns) will do what they can get away with, and having the same monetary umbrella without fiscal checks and balances puts too much faith in humans doing the right thing. Humans at their core will do what benefits them, and the static economic nature of using bitcoin, or any global currency, would not breed prosperity in the US.






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Blakely Bimbo
Alabama Fan
Member since Dec 2010
1067 posts

re: The Time Table for the Dollar


quote:

But printing money


Watch what they actually do...

As of Nov 28, SOMA drain of nearly $21 billion.

SOMA

TOMO a Reverse repo delivered today.

TOMO






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Crbello4Hiceman
LSU Fan
Lurking
Member since May 2011
436 posts

re: The Time Table for the Dollar


I think the whole basis for being "anti-fed" is the thought that a smooth, increase in wealth is a less admirable goal than a less "manipulated" free market where there are consequences for the players that aren't "smoothed." This is because the goal is purely freedom, not material prosperity and therefore everyone's actions shouldn't be smoothed economically.Also,as others have noted, the authority to control results leads to influence being steered by special interest, which the anti-fed sees as not worth the benefit of stability.

For example, government intervention by the fed and the government through easing and bailouts kept the entire banking industry from collapsing but the debt is racking up. I get what Ron Paul says when he says that our wealth is purely artificial because it is built on debt and monetary policy rather than on pure prosperity. I think if we had the swings in standard deviations cause by a lack of monetary control, it would definitely limit our expansion of standard of living. It would cause uncertainty and instability in employment, etc but on the bright side it would prevent the government from digging us in a hole that we may never be able to get out of. We may not be as rich as we are but government wouldn't have the tools to dig the long-term grave we are digging, IMHO. Definitely a great discussion. I understand both sides' points.






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BennyAndTheInkJets
Arkansas Fan
NYC
Member since Nov 2010
3843 posts

re: The Time Table for the Dollar


Great post.


This post was edited on 12/9 at 1:40 pm


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Spock
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Member since Mar 2010
1080 posts

re: The Time Table for the Dollar


quote:

I think the whole basis for being "anti-fed" is the thought that a smooth, increase in wealth is a less admirable goal than a less "manipulated" free market where there are consequences for the players that aren't "smoothed." This is because the goal is purely freedom, not material prosperity and therefore everyone's actions shouldn't be smoothed economically.Also,as others have noted, the authority to control results leads to influence being steered by special interest, which the anti-fed sees as not worth the benefit of stability.


This is true. The core of Libertarianism strives for "freedom" over "prosperity" when the two are inconsistent with each other. Libertarian philosophy will allway choose the option that grants more freedom over an option that grants more prosperity but also requires more government control. I beleive that in 99% of cases, however, liberty and prosperity go hand and hand with one another. Currency may be one of those cases where the two are at odds with each other.






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slutiger5
Southeastern LA Fan
Parroquias de Florida
Member since May 2007
8187 posts
 Online 

re: The Time Table for the Dollar


Thanks but I'm a rookie. I don't understand this.





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Bayou Tiger
LSU Fan
The Woodlands, TX
Member since Nov 2003
3225 posts

re: The Time Table for the Dollar


quote:

slutiger5
Every time I see your screen name, I think the same two things.

1) Was the double entendre intentional?
2) Are you a female?



This post was edited on 12/5 at 10:11 pm


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