All this talk about how much the rich can "AFFORD" to pay in taxes - Page 2 - TigerDroppings.com

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Taxing Authority
LSU Fan
Houston
Member since Feb 2010
22097 posts

re: All this talk about how much the rich can "AFFORD" to pay in taxes


quote:

Again, eagerly awaiting studies to prove the effects of taxes on the wealthy.
Again. The purpose of taxes are not to "effect the wealthy". They are to fund the government. How would you even quanitfy "fairness"?






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ShortyRob
LSU Fan
Huntsville, AL
Member since Oct 2008
26534 posts

re: All this talk about how much the rich can "AFFORD" to pay in taxes


quote:

The Bush tax cuts made no attempt at simplification. They only cut marginal rates (mostly for "the poor" btw).
Yep. If anything, Bush EXPANDED the taker class with his tax plan. Fewer people pay income taxes under Bush's plan now than did prior.






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Taxing Authority
LSU Fan
Houston
Member since Feb 2010
22097 posts

re: All this talk about how much the rich can "AFFORD" to pay in taxes


quote:

Fewer people pay income taxes under Bush's plan now than did prior.
Precisely why Obama only wants to repeal the cuts for "the rich"...






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ShortyRob
LSU Fan
Huntsville, AL
Member since Oct 2008
26534 posts

re: All this talk about how much the rich can "AFFORD" to pay in taxes


quote:

Precisely why Obama only wants to repeal the cuts for "the rich"...
It's actually a great example of how complely envious the parasite class is.

In fact, it proves something I've said for probably 30 years. The non-rich have been so brainwashed by class envy that you can give them a tax cut and they'll be pissed their cut wasn't as big as someone else's.

Given a choice between the following to policies(at any point in the last 40 years)
1)Cut taxes for everyone by 5%

2)Cut taxes for no one but raise taxes on "the rich"

I'm convinced the masses would think #2 was more beneficial to them than #1. All you'd hear with #1 was how much LARGER the tax benefit was to the rich.






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Taxing Authority
LSU Fan
Houston
Member since Feb 2010
22097 posts

re: All this talk about how much the rich can "AFFORD" to pay in taxes


quote:

The non-rich have been so brainwashed by class envy that you can give them a tax cut and they'll be pissed their cut wasn't as big as someone else's.
Probably some merit to this. Certainlany, many have fallen for the rhetoric that our fiscal problems are due to low tax rates on the wealthy. Which is silly. We have one of the most progressive tax structures on the planet. The top 10% pay 70% of the taxes.

If you took all of their income --every dollar-- it wouldn't even cover more than 20% of a single years deficit, much less begin to address the debt. We're too far gone to hang it on the rich.

They mistakenly believe that all we have to do is tax "the rich" a little bit more and all our problems will be solved. Nothing could be further from the truth. "The rich" simply do not earn enough to bail us out. Collectively, the poor and the middle class each earn more than "the rich". Any bailing out will have to come from those lower income levels --unless we cut spending drastically. I see no appetite for either among the electorate. And that spells doom. The mathematically deficient don't see it coming. And they will suffer accordingly.

Honestly, they'd have a point if arithmaticly it were possible to address the deficit and debt by taxing the rich. But they don't. It will be entirely ineffective. And I simply cannot justify in my mind why taking from "the rich" to the benefit of no one is a sensible idea. Even Buffet admits its about "boosting morale".

Its all about comeuppance and revenge. It's got d*ck f*ck all to do with fiscal responsibility, or helping "the poor".




This post was edited on 12/2 at 3:27 am


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germandawg
Member since Sep 2012
2718 posts

re: All this talk about how much the rich can "AFFORD" to pay in taxes


quote:

And no, the money does NOT return FROM govt to the middle class with same force it would've hit them from the private sector.


Thhose of you on this side of this issue are always saying this BUT there is no basis in fact for this, ot at least none that anyone can possible find. How is a dollar spent in the private sector worth more than one spent in the public sector? I know the answer...no one is looking after the public sector dollar like they are the private sector dollar, and of course this is true. Being true doesn't mean, however, that the public sector $ is less valuable. In fact the Public Sector $ has lead to some pretty miraculous innovations over time....like discovery of the new world (paid for with tax dollars of the day) and this very forum that we are using. I know it is intuitive to assume that taxes take money out of the hand of the earner and thus the money somehow dissapears out of the economy but there is no basis in fact for it.







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ShortyRob
LSU Fan
Huntsville, AL
Member since Oct 2008
26534 posts

re: All this talk about how much the rich can "AFFORD" to pay in taxes


quote:

How is a dollar spent in the private sector worth more than one spent in the public sector?
You can't be fricking serious. Even liberals recognize that tax dollars do not return to the economy as a full dollar. For obvious fricking reasons. YOu have to pay people to administrate the removal and redistribution.

For frick's sake. Burn all of our schools down.

quote:

In fact the Public Sector $ has lead to some pretty miraculous innovations over time....like discovery of the new world (paid for with tax dollars of the day) and this very forum that we are using
This is irrelevant to my point.

quote:

I know it is intuitive to assume that taxes take money out of the hand of the earner and thus the money somehow dissapears out of the economy but there is no basis in fact for it.
Again, it has been studied countless times by all sides of the political spectrum. There is literally ZERO debate that tax dollars do not return to the economy as a full dollar.

Again, burn all of our fricking schools down.






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ChineseBandit58
LSU Fan
west of the pines
Member since Aug 2005
9552 posts
 Online 

re: All this talk about how much the rich can "AFFORD" to pay in taxes


quote:

Given a choice between the following to policies(at any point in the last 40 years)
1)Cut taxes for everyone by 5%

2)Cut taxes for no one but raise taxes on "the rich"

I'm convinced the masses would think #2 was more beneficial to them than #1.


It's been a long time since I have suggested a similar idea to yours.

I have proposed to increase all welfare payments by 20% - but then require EVERYONE to pay back a portion of any welfare money they received as TAXES on April 15. (I would make sure that the 'after tax' welfare benefit was MORE than the pre-extra welfare benefit, so that they would actually still be getting a little MORE from the government over the course of the year.)

I think we would soon see EVERYONE clamoring for reduced taxes.






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ChineseBandit58
LSU Fan
west of the pines
Member since Aug 2005
9552 posts
 Online 

re: All this talk about how much the rich can "AFFORD" to pay in taxes


quote:

How is a dollar spent in the private sector worth more than one spent in the public sector?

Two fallicies in your thought process here.

First, and most important, is that money spent in by the government is not as effective as money spent by private interests is that individuals spend THEIR OWN money goods and services that benefit THEM as individuals, and THIS commerce gives rise to many competitors for their business and in doing so produces an economic engine that drives to please as many people as possible for the least amount of expenditure as possible. This is the very model of capitalism.

On the other hand, a dollar spent by government is spent on policies and interests that benefits government. Do not kid yourself that a dollar spent on welfare is spent to make the welfare recipient solvent - it is spent to ensure that they will VOTE for MORE government intervention in the policies and services of government that encourages MORE welfare participation - that generates MORE like-minded voters - that produces more encouragement of welfare - and so on and so on.

If the government does not spend the money on vote-buying schemes, they operate as crony-capitalists and spend it with agencies that provide the government officials with funding or support (Solyndra and unions as examples.)

None of this government spending of a dollar nearly as forcefully as a private expenditure of a dollar in producing a healthy, unbiased economy.

Of course the expenditure of any dollar acts the same way at the time of the initial expenditure, but the down stream results of that dollar have extremely varying results.

2) Second, I hope you realize that a dollar spent by the government must have been taken from SOMEONE in the private sector.

So I would hope you recognize that REAL question should have been "Does a dollar spent by an individual have the same effect as a dollar sent to DC in the form of taxes??"

To actually SPEND a dollar by the government, you have to EXTRACT much MORE than a dollar from some private person.

So by definition that dollar extracted FROM an individual does not have the same effect as that same dollar spent 100% by the individual for his own interests.

You can quibble about the efficiency of the 'dollar extracted' vs the 'dollar spent' but you cannot quibble that there is a reduction in value there.







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Zed
Alabama Fan
Member since Feb 2010
7913 posts

re: All this talk about how much the rich can "AFFORD" to pay in taxes


quote:

And no, the money does NOT return FROM govt to the middle class with same force it would've hit them from the private sector.
You think trickle down spending on yachts and such is more beneficial to the middle class than medicare/social security/public education? You can think progressive taxation of the rich immoral, but it's certainly logical for those who are not themselves rich.






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ForeLSU
LSU Fan
The Corner of Sanity and Madness
Member since Sep 2003
33635 posts

re: All this talk about how much the rich can "AFFORD" to pay in taxes


quote:

I eagerly await your study from economic geniuses who think otherwise.


not quite the OP's point, but nevertheless...

LINK

quote:

Before proceeding, another inconvenient little fact must be mentioned. The economic cost of a dollar's worth of government expenditures is more than a dollar, because taxes must be imposed to finance government expenditures. These taxes impose distortions (costs) on the economy, and these distortions cut the economy's potential and reduce economic productivity. The costs created by taxes are referred to as the "excess burden" of taxation.

Since 1992, even the White House Office of Management and Budget (OMB) has recognized the existence of the excess burden. For purposes of evaluating federal projects, the OMB requires that an excess burden of 20% be employed. A wide range of scholarly research indicates that the average excess burden of the federal tax system is actually closer to 35%. Accordingly, the real economic cost of a dollar's worth of federal spending is $1.35, not $1.00. To put this fact into context requires us to expand the level of government expenditures by 35%. After we do that, federal government expenditures, as a percent of GDP (including the excess burden of taxes), rise from their current level of 24.3% to a whopping 32.8%. By adding this little inconvenient fact into the mix, the "big" versus "small" government debate comes into sharper relief.








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Powerman
LSU Fan
Corpus Christi, TX
Member since Jan 2004
120345 posts

re: All this talk about how much the rich can "AFFORD" to pay in taxes


quote:


If a man worth $50 million has $1M taken from him, yes, he barely notices. Maybe he buys one less really cool item for himself. But wait, that really cool item was built, marketed and sold by a middle class guy.

Seems unlikely

If you have 50 million or 49 million, you aren't going to hold back on buying whatever the hell you want.

Now you could argue that the money won't be invested in the stock market or bond market or some fund somewhere. But some dude with 50 million isn't going to hold off on buying a range rover because he now only has 49 million.

That's just fricking stupid






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ForeLSU
LSU Fan
The Corner of Sanity and Madness
Member since Sep 2003
33635 posts

re: All this talk about how much the rich can "AFFORD" to pay in taxes


quote:

BUT there is no basis in fact for this, ot at least none that anyone can possible find.


read the article I just posted...






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ForeLSU
LSU Fan
The Corner of Sanity and Madness
Member since Sep 2003
33635 posts

re: All this talk about how much the rich can "AFFORD" to pay in taxes


quote:

That's just fricking stupid


my business deals almost exclusively with the wealthy....for the most part you're dead wrong, outside of spoiled trust-fund types who are going to blow through their money regardless.






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ShortyRob
LSU Fan
Huntsville, AL
Member since Oct 2008
26534 posts

re: All this talk about how much the rich can "AFFORD" to pay in taxes


quote:

You think trickle down spending on yachts and such is more beneficial to the middle class than medicare/social security/public education?
You're right. The only thing that happens with rich people's extra money is yacht buying. Sheesh. Talk about a prime example of good Pavlov training.

quote:

You can think progressive taxation of the rich immoral,
I'm not against progressive taxation so I've no idea what you're talking about. I am against income taxes PERIOD. But, if you're going to have an income tax, then it will probably be progressive. Even your typical flat tax proposals are progressive in that they usually allow for low income exemptions.

quote:

but it's certainly logical for those who are not themselves rich.
Again, that getting free shite you didn't earn from the people who did earn it is popular is hardly surprising. People like free shite they didn't earn. Water is wet.






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ShortyRob
LSU Fan
Huntsville, AL
Member since Oct 2008
26534 posts

re: All this talk about how much the rich can "AFFORD" to pay in taxes


quote:

If you have 50 million or 49 million, you aren't going to hold back on buying whatever the hell you want. Now you could argue that the money won't be invested in the stock market or bond market or some fund somewhere. But some dude with 50 million isn't going to hold off on buying a range rover because he now only has 49 million. That's just fricking stupid
Which is why I simply gave a few examples of where the money would NOT go.

Point is, the guy wont notice it really at all. THe only people that will notice the missing million will be the people that the million might've been directed at and quite often, those people are not millionaires.






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acgeaux129
USA Fan
We are BR
Member since Sep 2007
15011 posts

re: All this talk about how much the rich can "AFFORD" to pay in taxes


quote:

DapperDan


Does your fund do internships?



This post was edited on 12/2 at 9:37 am


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NC_Tigah
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2003
50468 posts

re: All this talk about how much the rich can "AFFORD" to pay in taxes


quote:

Seems unlikely

If you have 50 million or 49 million, you aren't going to hold back on buying whatever the hell you want.

Now you could argue that the money won't be invested in the stock market or bond market or some fund somewhere. But some dude with 50 million isn't going to hold off on buying a range rover because he now only has 49 million.

That's just fricking stupid
I can tell you assuredly it is not stupid at all.

To clarify, spending reticence isn't just related to your hypothetical $1 million. It is related to on going class warfare hatred which intimates no intention to stop at that one million. Rather the socialist's message is "this is just the start."

The Washington hate speak directed at affluence and business nurtures uncertainty. Uncertainty freezes money flow.







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ChineseBandit58
LSU Fan
west of the pines
Member since Aug 2005
9552 posts
 Online 

re: All this talk about how much the rich can "AFFORD" to pay in taxes


quote:

If you have 50 million or 49 million, you aren't going to hold back on buying whatever the hell you want.

I don't think it is as 'stupid' as you assert in your post.

There certainly is SOME budget that everyone employs, and regardless of how big that budget is, there is no arguing that if you take an extra tax amount that budget is reduced.

At some level, SOMETHING will not be bought. It may not be the full level of the amount taxed, but some expenditure will be avoided.

Now, you may be right, that the guy with 49mil vs 50mil will buy 'whatever he wants,' but the very nature of 'what he wants,' will probably be affected by that missing million.

I know that in my own experience, when I was facing the probability of a reduction-in-force at NASA years ago (I survived the cut, btw) I scaled back on what *I* wanted by a great deal in the months awaiting the bloodbath. Didn't even think about it - I just 'wanted' less faced with the new dynamic.



This post was edited on 12/2 at 9:46 am


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Zed
Alabama Fan
Member since Feb 2010
7913 posts

re: All this talk about how much the rich can "AFFORD" to pay in taxes


quote:

You're right. The only thing that happens with rich people's extra money is yacht buying.
No. They buy "really cool items" and ski vacations too.
quote:

Again, that getting free shite you didn't earn from the people who did earn it is popular is hardly surprising.
You were I believe making the argument that money taxed from the rich and spent by the government had less benefit for the middle class than that money being spent in the private sector. If this were the case, hitting them with a high tax rate would be illogical.






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