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TN Bhoy 
USA Fan
Philly
Member since Apr 2010
33584 posts
| Daily Mail: British NHS puts sick babies on "death pathway" (Posted on 11/29/12 at 2:24 pm)
I think I'm going to be sick (Content Warning)
quote:
Sick children are being discharged from NHS hospitals to die at home or in hospices on controversial ‘death pathways’.
Until now, end of life regime the Liverpool Care Pathway was thought to have involved only elderly and terminally-ill adults.
But the Mail can reveal the practice of withdrawing food and fluid by tube is being used on young patients as well as severely disabled newborn babies.
One doctor has admitted starving and dehydrating ten babies to death in the neonatal unit of one hospital alone.
Writing in a leading medical journal, the physician revealed the process can take an average of ten days during which a baby becomes ‘smaller and shrunken’.
The LCP – on which 130,000 elderly and terminally-ill adult patients die each year – is now the subject of an independent inquiry ordered by ministers.
The investigation, which will include child patients, will look at whether cash payments to hospitals to hit death pathway targets have influenced doctors’ decisions.
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SlowFlowPro 
Stanford Fan
Equality is a circle, not a =
Member since Jan 2004
263327 posts
 Online
| re: Daily Mail: British NHS puts sick babies on "death pathway" (Posted on 11/29/12 at 2:26 pm to TN Bhoy)
quote:
I think I'm going to be sick (Content Warning)
would you support euthanasia to avoid the 10 days of terror?
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50Mullets 
LSU Fan
Member since Oct 2012
1059 posts
| re: Daily Mail: British NHS puts sick babies on "death pathway" (Posted on 11/29/12 at 2:28 pm to SlowFlowPro)
quote:
would you support euthanasia to avoid the 10 days of terror?
How about we just avoid committing infanticide.
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BugAC
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Oct 2007
13805 posts
| re: Daily Mail: British NHS puts sick babies on "death pathway" (Posted on 11/29/12 at 2:29 pm to SlowFlowPro)
The system that the Democrats strive to have. We aren't there now, but if Obamacare is not reversed, in about 10 years, the same will happen. Congratulations liberals. This is your healthcare. Own it.
This post was edited on 11/29 at 2:30 pm
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SlowFlowPro
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Equality is a circle, not a =
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| re: Daily Mail: British NHS puts sick babies on "death pathway" (Posted on 11/29/12 at 2:31 pm to 50Mullets)
quote:
How about we just avoid committing infanticide.
well these kids seem to be babies who are going to die. they're not just starving normal/healthy babies
the question is how many resources do we devote to trying to save them, and how painful do we want their death to be?
fwiw, one reason why european medical care gets rated so highly is b/c they let babies like this die while we try to save them. once you try to save them and they die, it counts against you. if you just let them die, it doesn't.
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TrueTiger
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Republic of West Florida
Member since Sep 2004
2514 posts
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| re: Daily Mail: British NHS puts sick babies on "death pathway" (Posted on 11/29/12 at 2:36 pm to TN Bhoy)
No surprise, it's a government run system. In its view these are not humans, they are budget items.
It's government bureaucracy. As the Terminator line goes, "It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear."
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MSMHater
LSU Fan
Houston
Member since Oct 2008
10949 posts
| re: Daily Mail: British NHS puts sick babies on "death pathway" (Posted on 11/29/12 at 2:37 pm to SlowFlowPro)
quote:
fwiw, one reason why european medical care gets rated so highly is b/c they let babies like this die while we try to save them. once you try to save them and they die, it counts against you. if you just let them die, it doesn't.
The cost of trying to save them also counts, and is a big factor in overall healthcare expenditures. Same applies for expiring geriatrics. The "heroic medicine" attitude is a huge part of our problem.
I'm sure the medical reasoning behind these deaths are much less sinister than the publication and OP portray them to be.
This post was edited on 11/29 at 2:38 pm
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McChowder
LSU Fan
Hammond
Member since Dec 2006
2767 posts
| re: Daily Mail: British NHS puts sick babies on "death pathway" (Posted on 11/29/12 at 2:44 pm to TN Bhoy)
quote:
The investigation, which will include child patients, will look at whether cash payments to hospitals to hit death pathway targets have influenced doctors’ decisions.
Did anyone catch that part? Do they have euthanasia quotas???
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Teddy Ruxpin
LSU Fan
New Orleans, LA
Member since Oct 2006
12372 posts
| re: Daily Mail: British NHS puts sick babies on "death pathway" (Posted on 11/29/12 at 2:47 pm to MSMHater)
quote:
The cost of trying to save them also counts, and is a big factor in overall healthcare expenditures. Same applies for expiring geriatrics. The "heroic medicine" attitude is a huge part of our problem. I'm sure the medical reasoning behind these deaths are much less sinister than the publication and OP portray them to be.
There is no doubt that life extending medical care skyrockets expenditures.
The issue/concern for me is, when you try to alleviate that by making the good faith effort to avoid those costs by letting nature take its course, you potentially create an attitude shift from "Let's do our best at all times" to something a little less than that.
While surely a small percentage would fit this criteria, it would be awfully scary to be a "borderline" case in a cost cutting environment.
I'd rather some system that would look to the patient's ability to pay for such treatment. If we have an obviously near impossible case, the patient/patient's family must prove the ability to pay or a charity must come along to continue "the good fight."
Having unpaid massive medical bills is terrible for everybody.
This post was edited on 11/29 at 2:49 pm
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TigerTattle
LSU Fan
Out of Town
Member since Sep 2007
3923 posts
| re: Daily Mail: British NHS puts sick babies on "death pathway" (Posted on 11/29/12 at 3:00 pm to TN Bhoy)
quote:
think I'm going to be sick
Understatement of the day.
quote:
Bernadette Lloyd, a hospice paediatric nurse, has written to the Cabinet Office and the Department of Health to criticise the use of death pathways for children.
'‘I have also seen children die in terrible thirst because fluids are withdrawn from them until they die'
She said: ‘The parents feel coerced, at a very traumatic time, into agreeing that this is correct for their child whom they are told by doctors has only has a few days to live. It is very difficult to predict death. I have seen a “reasonable” number of children recover after being taken off the pathway.
‘I have also seen children die in terrible thirst because fluids are withdrawn from them until they die.
‘I witnessed a 14 year-old boy with cancer die with his tongue stuck to the roof of his mouth when doctors refused to give him liquids by tube. His death was agonising for him, and for us nurses to watch. This is euthanasia by the backdoor.’
Most everyone here has children. Do you remember how they cried when they were hungry/thirsty? Can you even imagine withholding food/fluids from one, no matter their prognosis?
How can it be considered "compassionate care" when they suffer not only their symptoms but hunger and thirst until their death?
Some children are going to die and there's no way around it. They should be made as comfortable as possible until death occurs. This LCP process, though, seems to be a means of hurrying that event with little care for comfort or compassion.
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TigerTattle
LSU Fan
Out of Town
Member since Sep 2007
3923 posts
| re: Daily Mail: British NHS puts sick babies on "death pathway" (Posted on 11/29/12 at 3:02 pm to McChowder)
quote:
Did anyone catch that part? Do they have euthanasia quotas???
I did. 'Death pathway targets' does imply that they have a target number to reach, and that number dictates cash payments.
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BugAC
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Oct 2007
13805 posts
| re: Daily Mail: British NHS puts sick babies on "death pathway" (Posted on 11/29/12 at 3:03 pm to TigerTattle)
quote:
Some children are going to die and there's no way around it. They should be made as comfortable as possible until death occurs. This LCP process, though, seems to be a means of hurrying that event with little care for comfort or compassion.
It's absolutely sickening. But hey, we get to try it out now. At least we get a cool phone.
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McChowder
LSU Fan
Hammond
Member since Dec 2006
2767 posts
| re: Daily Mail: British NHS puts sick babies on "death pathway" (Posted on 11/29/12 at 3:15 pm to TigerTattle)
quote:
I did. 'Death pathway targets' does imply that they have a target number to reach, and that number dictates cash payments.
No doubt this is about incentivizing euthanasia as a cost control measure.....and people are called nutz for questioning so called "end of life counseling ". Doctors are going to be pressured to "sell death" like used car salesmen hustling for a bonus.
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TigerTattle
LSU Fan
Out of Town
Member since Sep 2007
3923 posts
| re: Daily Mail: British NHS puts sick babies on "death pathway" (Posted on 11/29/12 at 3:17 pm to McChowder)
quote:
Doctors are going to be pressured to "sell death" like used car salesmen hustling for a bonus.
Nah. That's just crazy ol' Sarah Palin makin' up stuff about death panels.
/sarcasm.
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catholictigerfan
LSU Fan
Member since Oct 2009
26377 posts
Online
| re: Daily Mail: British NHS puts sick babies on "death pathway" (Posted on 11/29/12 at 3:19 pm to SlowFlowPro)
quote:
would you support euthanasia to avoid the 10 days of terror?
there are means of ordinary care and extraordinary care.
ordinary care should not be taken away from the sickest of patients, this mostly includes hydration and food.
extraordinary care can be taken away at the disgression of the patient or legal gaurdian or legal representitive of the patient. This includes DNRs breathing machines maybe heart machine or something.
I believe it is morally wrong to starve someone to death or dehydrate someone to death, even if they are very sick, it is a very inhumane way to let someone die.
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TJG210
LSU Fan
New Orleans
Member since Aug 2006
18424 posts
| re: Daily Mail: British NHS puts sick babies on "death pathway" (Posted on 11/29/12 at 3:26 pm to catholictigerfan)
quote:
I believe it is morally wrong to starve someone to death or dehydrate someone to death, even if they are very sick, it is a very inhumane way to let someone die.
Agreed.......why in the hell did so many Catholics vote for the idiot in the white house that advocates this BS? I'm Catholic and was apalled to see some of the numbers.
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McChowder
LSU Fan
Hammond
Member since Dec 2006
2767 posts
| re: Daily Mail: British NHS puts sick babies on "death pathway" (Posted on 11/29/12 at 3:30 pm to TJG210)
I'm more amazed by the Jewish support this clown receives.
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TJG210
LSU Fan
New Orleans
Member since Aug 2006
18424 posts
| re: Daily Mail: British NHS puts sick babies on "death pathway" (Posted on 11/29/12 at 3:38 pm to McChowder)
quote:
I'm more amazed by the Jewish support this clown receives.
Agreed.......I know a Jewish guy and was shocked to find he was a big time odummy fan. I asked why, and all I got was whiny liberal bs.
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vl100butch
LSU Fan
Vicksburg, MS
Member since Sep 2005
23122 posts
| re: Daily Mail: British NHS puts sick babies on "death pathway" (Posted on 11/29/12 at 3:41 pm to catholictigerfan)
I just went through something similar with an aunt in her mid 80's who was under hospice care...
how do you keep someone comfortable who is dying and under hospice care....if you give them IV fluids, you are just prolonging the inevetible
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WildTchoupitoulas
Member since Jan 2010
10634 posts
| re: Daily Mail: British NHS puts sick babies on "death pathway" (Posted on 11/29/12 at 3:42 pm to 50Mullets)
quote:
How about we just avoid committing infanticide.
Do you know how much money we spend to keep premature crack babies alive until they eventually succumb?
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