Baseball Hall of Fame ballot out today....felt dirty looking at it..who gets in? - Page 5 - TigerDroppings.com

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Lester Earl
LSU Fan
#buganation
Member since Nov 2003
182134 posts

re: Baseball Hall of Fame ballot out today....felt dirty looking at it..who gets in?


quote:

Wouldn't it have been more likely that he started juicing around 93 with Caminiti (known juicer) Bagwell and Luis Gonzalez (alleged juicers) all on his team?


dont forget about Steve Finley, as well as Jay Bell. BUt i dont think these guys juiced until they got with Gonzo in AZ.

Finley also played in San Diego with Caminiti, so there is a pretty good chance they are all friends and all talked in the offseason








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Lester Earl
LSU Fan
#buganation
Member since Nov 2003
182134 posts

re: Baseball Hall of Fame ballot out today....felt dirty looking at it..who gets in?


quote:

mitchell report was a long time after steroids were first a major part of baseball


I dont see your point.

quote:

well sure (in retrospect) but Brady Anderson, Gary Sheffield, Raf Palmiero etc went largely unnoticed as probable PED users at the time


anderson went unnoticed? lol

Look, Sammy Sosa went unnoticed too. Everyone was eating it up at the time.

But it's easy to look back and pinpoint who some of the guys were using.

Yes, it is retrospect, I am not trying to look in any other light.






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SCUBABlake
LSU Fan
RIP WT6
Member since Jan 2008
39962 posts

re: Baseball Hall of Fame ballot out today....felt dirty looking at it..who gets in?


quote:

Alex Sanchez. 1st player caught juicing. He was tiny speedster with no power. If he was juicing, everyone was juicing. And there is no body type to a juicer. It's ridiculous to think so.


Bingo. It was all throughout baseball. If the PED Era deserves an asterisk, so do many others. You can't compare apples to apples in baseball eras, IMO.

That being said, I've always liked Bonds. Ever since he was scrawny and with the Pirates. The fact still remains that he is the only member of the 500/500 Club, much less the 400/400 Club. Truly a remarkable ballplayer... PED's or not.






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GynoSandberg
LA-Lafayette Fan
Clutch City
Member since Jan 2006
33575 posts

re: Baseball Hall of Fame ballot out today....felt dirty looking at it..who gets in?


quote:



24, 26 and 21 HRs. He had just hit 20 a few years before, so we aren't talking a massive jump.


He hit 20 HR five times in 16 seasons, then hit 20 HR 3 of his last 4, which also had his 2 highest HR total seasons. I agree, the Dome did cost him a few HRs though.

quote:


So he plays an entire year in the OF and decides he needs to juice?


Maybe he was already juicing. It isn't a magic elixir that guarantees 20+ HRs. Or maybe after his 1st year in the OF he felt he was lacking in some areas?

quote:

Wouldn't it have been more likely that he started juicing around 93 with Caminiti (known juicer) Bagwell and Luis Gonzalez (alleged juicers) all on his team?



Maybe he did? 1993 was his first 20 HR season and when he became more of a power hitter. Hmmmmm

88-3
89-13
90-4
91-4
92-6

93- 21
94- 6 (injured)
95- 22
96- 15
97- 22
98- 20
99- 16
00-8
01- 20
02- 15

03- 15
04- 24
05- 26
06- 21
07- 10



This post was edited on 11/28 at 2:57 pm


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Lester Earl
LSU Fan
#buganation
Member since Nov 2003
182134 posts

re: Baseball Hall of Fame ballot out today....felt dirty looking at it..who gets in?


Caminitii supposedly never juiced until his MVP season in 1996.





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molsusports
LSU Fan
Member since Jul 2004
26532 posts

re: Baseball Hall of Fame ballot out today....felt dirty looking at it..who gets in?


quote:

mitchell report was a long time after steroids were first a major part of baseball



I dont see your point.


At some level all serious baseball fans knew steroids/PEDs were a major part of baseball from the late 80s thru at least the mid 2000s (and probably still today).

At some level those fans and members of the media rejected users of PEDs as being cheaters - but they generally did not apply the same logic to the players they had personal affinity for.

Going back retrospectively to see how hypocritical almost everyone was on the subject is probably a healthy exercise IMO - but picking out individuals for special condemnation is probably just going to be a more refined form of hypocrisy on the subject.






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Lester Earl
LSU Fan
#buganation
Member since Nov 2003
182134 posts

re: Baseball Hall of Fame ballot out today....felt dirty looking at it..who gets in?


I can agree with that.

its fun to talk about looking back. trying to pin point who used and who didnt.

the media is a whole different story. Im just trying to stay in the message board realm.






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barry
Cincinnati Fan
Location, Location, Location
Member since Aug 2006
37868 posts

re: Baseball Hall of Fame ballot out today....felt dirty looking at it..who gets in?


Biggio FB% numbers climbed those years he hit 20+ HR, while his HR/FB% also climbed up a bit its not that much higher than his career numbers. Sounds like he just tried to start lifting the ball a little more





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Lester Earl
LSU Fan
#buganation
Member since Nov 2003
182134 posts

re: Baseball Hall of Fame ballot out today....felt dirty looking at it..who gets in?


quote:

not that much higher than his career numbers.


define "career numbers"







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barry
Cincinnati Fan
Location, Location, Location
Member since Aug 2006
37868 posts

re: Baseball Hall of Fame ballot out today....felt dirty looking at it..who gets in?


quote:

define "career numbers"


numbers for his career






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Lester Earl
LSU Fan
#buganation
Member since Nov 2003
182134 posts

re: Baseball Hall of Fame ballot out today....felt dirty looking at it..who gets in?


wasnt he a 20 HR hitter most of his career though?


he was a scrawny little catcher his first 4-5 years then he moved and bulked up and all of a sudden started hitting balls out of the pitching friendly astrodome.

i could see how those numbers would match up, he was a pretty strong hitter for most of his career.


what were his numbers from 88-95 compared to his career numberS?



This post was edited on 11/28 at 3:14 pm


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barry
Cincinnati Fan
Location, Location, Location
Member since Aug 2006
37868 posts

re: Baseball Hall of Fame ballot out today....felt dirty looking at it..who gets in?


quote:

i could see how those numbers would match up, he was a pretty strong hitter for most of his career.


Yea i agree with you. I'm simply stating that his increased HR numbers at the end of his career appears to be because he was hitting more FB. 10-20% more. His HR/FB% jumped a little bit but not enough to be statistically relevant. Totals HR are a decent indicator but HR/FB are a much more telling stat IMO.






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barry
Cincinnati Fan
Location, Location, Location
Member since Aug 2006
37868 posts

re: Baseball Hall of Fame ballot out today....felt dirty looking at it..who gets in?




Here is his isolated power(slug-avg, another better indicator than just straight HR) through his career. His late career bump isn't bad at all when you lay it out with his career.






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ZTiger87
LSU Fan
Member since Nov 2009
11422 posts

re: Baseball Hall of Fame ballot out today....felt dirty looking at it..who gets in?


quote:

e hit 20 HR five times in 16 seasons, then hit 20 HR 3 of his last 4, which also had his 2 highest HR total seasons.


From 93 on he consistently hit 15-20 HRs a season. 94 (strike shortened) and 2000 (injury) were the only seasons he didn't hit 15+ HRs. Like I said before, going from 15-20 to 24 & 26 isn't much of a jump.

quote:

Maybe he was already juicing. It isn't a magic elixir that guarantees 20+ HRs. Or maybe after his 1st year in the OF he felt he was lacking in some areas?


Maybe, but if he juiced then it really only helped him hit a few more HRs.

quote:

Maybe he did? 1993 was his first 20 HR season and when he became more of a power hitter. Hmmmmm



Which was my point. If he juiced than it was probably early on in his career. That said, he never had injury problems which seemed very common in juicers. And this is the first time I've ever heard of Biggio being linked to steroids.

quote:

Biggio FB% numbers climbed those years he hit 20+ HR, while his HR/FB% also climbed up a bit its not that much higher than his career numbers. Sounds like he just tried to start lifting the ball a little more


He drew fewer walks as well. I think he just became a bit more aggressive trying to get to 3000 hits.






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molsusports
LSU Fan
Member since Jul 2004
26532 posts

re: Baseball Hall of Fame ballot out today....felt dirty looking at it..who gets in?


quote:

this is the first time I've ever heard of Biggio being linked to steroids.



many fans associate bagwell and biggio (and to some extent caminiti). the assumption among many is that caminiti definitely juiced, bagwell almost definitely juiced and biggio probably juiced

the only one who ever admitted it was caminiti tho







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elprez00
New Orleans Saints Fan
Hammond, LA
Member since Sep 2011
12352 posts

re: Baseball Hall of Fame ballot out today....felt dirty looking at it..who gets in?


quote:

as he ever actually tied to steroid use?


No

Neither was Bagwell, FWIW.

Biggio should be a first ballot. Might not be, but 3000 hits are 3000 hits.






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barry
Cincinnati Fan
Location, Location, Location
Member since Aug 2006
37868 posts

re: Baseball Hall of Fame ballot out today....felt dirty looking at it..who gets in?


quote:

Biggio should be a first ballot. Might not be, but 3000 hits are 3000 hits.


Biggio won't be a first ballot HOF because Sandy Alamor wasn't IMO.






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Hot Carl
LSU Fan
Where I want to be
Member since Dec 2005
37772 posts

re: Baseball Hall of Fame ballot out today....felt dirty looking at it..who gets in?


quote:

Piazza is definitely in


thats what he said






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Baloo
LSU Fan
Formerly MDGeaux
Member since Sep 2003
43543 posts

re: Baseball Hall of Fame ballot out today....felt dirty looking at it..who gets in?


quote:

Biggio won't be a first ballot HOF because Sandy Alamor wasn't IMO.

huh? What does Biggio have to do with Alomar? And I'm hoping you meant Robby Alomar, who was probably held out on the first ballot for the spitting incident.






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yellowtiger
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge, LA
Member since Mar 2004
3100 posts

re: Baseball Hall of Fame ballot out today....felt dirty looking at it..who gets in?



"not on the first ballot" issue----what is the general unwritten criteria for not voting for one on the first ballot but then on a future ballot? if his stats (or whatever criteria) say he is HOF worthy, then he should be voted in immediately as his stats will not change from first year eligible to next. still, i do understand that there is some "significance" places on when one is voted in






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