Serious question about Lincoln and the Civil War, no flame. - Page 2 - TigerDroppings.com

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Baloo
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Formerly MDGeaux
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re: Serious question about Lincoln and the Civil War, no flame.


quote:

All I know is that Lincoln wanted to send the slaves back to their homeland but Congress said no

the American Colonization Society was an anti-slavery organization that tried to solve the issue of what to do with freed blacks by shipping them back to Africa. Henry Clay, Lincoln's political hero, had been a president of the organization. And it did ship slaves back to Africa to the nation of Liberia, which still exists.

It was a policy disaster because, well, slaves viewed themselves as Americans as well. The colonization option grew less and less popular and eventually its supporters advocated straight abolition for the slaves. Lincoln's position were decidedly moderate for their time. This wasn't some wild arse scheme he invented on his own without support.






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GumboPot
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re: Serious question about Lincoln and the Civil War, no flame.


I'll check the thread later...off to Trey Yuen for good eats with the fam.





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Baloo
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Formerly MDGeaux
Member since Sep 2003
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re: Serious question about Lincoln and the Civil War, no flame.


quote:

For the last time, the North did not fight the Civil War to end slavery! If you were to go back in time, say to 1863, and tell a Union soldier (especially an Irish one) that they were fighting to free slaves, he would knock your teeth out. Many of the Union soldiers were just as racist and as bigoted toward blacks as their Confederate counterparts. BUT...that doesn't take away from the fact that the Confederate government fought the Civil War to preserve the institution of slavery.

Precisely. Well said.






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theunknownknight
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Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2005
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re: Serious question about Lincoln and the Civil War, no flame.


quote:

Anyone who denies slavery was the root cause of secession and civil war are just in heavy denial and are in the midst of rationalizing how their ancestors could have fought and died in a war over something so cruel and so evil as the institution of slavery. Either that, or they are libertarian neo-Confederates who believe that, no matter the reason for their secession, the South had every right to do so.


You are interpreting their worldview through the prism of your own, that's where you are failing. We see slavery, today, as mainly moral issue. People in the south 200 years ago saw it as a economic issue while people in the North, who did not care to understand the economic ramifications of banning slavery had the luxury of seeing it as a moral issue.

The modern day version of this is the Obamacare regulations. They can kill the economy, that's why most are against it. But liberals with no vested interest in the affected industries have the luxury of legally enforcing these regulations as a moral issue.

If war were to commence over this, one said would say the other overstepped their bounds and hurt the economy, the other would say those opposing ObamaCare are immoral.

Basically, the war was really about money and control.



This post was edited on 11/21 at 11:02 am


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Zach
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Member since May 2005
63510 posts

re: Serious question about Lincoln and the Civil War, no flame.


During his series of debates with Stephen Douglas, Lincoln took an anti-slavery position. That doesn't mean it was the purpose of the war. But it indicates that he had an abolitionist stance prior to being elected President.





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LSURussian
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Baton Rouge
Member since Feb 2005
80697 posts

re: Serious question about Lincoln and the Civil War, no flame.


quote:

Lincoln did not wage the war to end slaver
True. He was just really pissed that southerners kept misspelling his last name....






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RollTide1987
Alabama Fan
Pensacola, Florida
Member since Nov 2009
24432 posts

re: Serious question about Lincoln and the Civil War, no flame.


quote:

People in the south 200 years ago saw it as a economic issue while people in the North, who did not care to understand the economic ramifications of banning slavery had the luxury of seeing it as a moral issue.


You ignore the fact that the vast majority of people in the North at that time were not in favor of immediate abolition. They didn't want millions of newly freed slaves working their way north to take jobs away from them for cheaper rates. Most northerners were in favor of gradual emancipation so as to not harm the southern economy and so as to not inject the market with millions of new and skilled laborers.

The South overreacted to the election of Abraham Lincoln, a man who professed time and time again in the debates with Douglas and in the 1860 presidential campaign that he wasn't an abolitionist.






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Baloo
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Formerly MDGeaux
Member since Sep 2003
43808 posts

re: Serious question about Lincoln and the Civil War, no flame.


quote:

The Civil War wasn't about Slavery. That's liberal propaganda. Do some research, read some of the old news papers at the time.


Let's quote the State of Mississippi's Declaration of Secession. This is what they felt they were seceding over, from their own mouths (or pens):

LINK

quote:

In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course. Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove.


So, is the contemporary declaration of secession back in 1861, which continues to relate to specific grievances, primarily related to slavery, "liberal propaganda"?

The South was pretty sure they were fighting for slavery. We know this because thy said so.






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CarrolltonTiger
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New Orleans
Member since Aug 2005
46292 posts

re: Serious question about Lincoln and the Civil War, no flame.


For Lincoln it was preserving the Union,
quote:

My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.






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theunknownknight
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Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2005
27121 posts

re: Serious question about Lincoln and the Civil War, no flame.


quote:

The South overreacted to the election of Abraham Lincoln, a man who professed time and time again in the debates with Douglas and in the 1860 presidential campaign that he wasn't an abolitionist.


The south didn't feel their votes were properly accounted for in his election first of all. Secondly, the expansion of the west was an issue of power and control. The North was repeatedly doing what it could to limit the South's influence. Much of this was bc the North had hard feelings toward the South bc of the South's buddy buddy relationship with England.



This post was edited on 11/21 at 11:19 am


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GumboPot
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re: Serious question about Lincoln and the Civil War, no flame.


From that quote you provided CT, it now begs the question why did the south want to leave? I understand the south wanted slavey but Lincoln didn't care he just wanted to keep the union together. So if Lincoln didn't care much about slavery and the south could continue the practice why did the south want to separate?





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Baloo
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Formerly MDGeaux
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re: Serious question about Lincoln and the Civil War, no flame.


That letter you are quoting was a public letter to be published in New York, a notoriously anti-abolitionist state. I am shocked -- SHOCKED! -- a politician told a constituency what they wanted to hear and softened his views to be more palatable to them so he could win their support. His letter to Greely was published in the NY Tribune and should be read like a political speech,

It's worth noting that Lincoln had already drafted the Emancipation Proclamation at this point, so he was setting Greeley up for part two of his attack (I have to free some slaves to save the Union, but I'm only doing it as a pro-Union measure).






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theunknownknight
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Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2005
27121 posts

re: Serious question about Lincoln and the Civil War, no flame.


quote:

So, is the contemporary declaration of secession back in 1861, which continues to relate to specific grievances, primarily related to slavery, "liberal propaganda"?


Again you are reading into the concept of "slavery" what you hear today. "Slavery", in that time wasn't simply slavery in and of itself. It was a word that encapsulated economic power, the growing global influence of the South in relation to the north and was the key concept in determining the economic power of the south in the west.

In case people forget...again...SLAVERY as an actual institution was ending anyway.






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Baloo
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Formerly MDGeaux
Member since Sep 2003
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re: Serious question about Lincoln and the Civil War, no flame.


Shockingly, I read the word "slavery" to mean "holding people in bondage". Specifically to 1800's America, I include a racial component of "black slavery". I read words to mean what they mean, not do verbal gymnastics to make it sat something less palatable to me.

My ancestors owned slaves. They believed in white supremacy. They fought a war to preserve slavery. They were products of the time and I'm not ashamed of my family's past. Why should I be? I can't do anything about it.






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windhammontanatigers
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windham-stanford, montana
Member since Nov 2009
3589 posts

re: Serious question about Lincoln and the Civil War, no flame.


Not about slavery at all. In Lincoln's eyes as previous posters have said all about the preservation of the Union. Did a paper on this very issue when I was in Law School at Paul M Hebert LaW Center. Spent a many an hour on the 3rd floor of the law library. If I could find the manuscript from Lincoln that was in the Library i would link the entire manuscript, Can 't remember the exact quote all these years later but in essence Lincoln and I certainly paraphrase at this late date that if this Civil War was all about slavery then there would be no war , Its all about preserving this great union. Elementary text books and high school History books will all tell you that the Civil War was all about Slavery. Simply not true.





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windhammontanatigers
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windham-stanford, montana
Member since Nov 2009
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re: Serious question about Lincoln and the Civil War, no flame.


Props to you, theunknownknight, Definitely in line with your thinking and my paper back in law school backs you up.





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CarrolltonTiger
LSU Fan
New Orleans
Member since Aug 2005
46292 posts

re: Serious question about Lincoln and the Civil War, no flame.


quote:

From that quote you provided CT, it now begs the question why did the south want to leave?



Putting aside the fact the issues between the north and south were greater than just slavery

Lincoln's Party was radical, Lincoln fell in with the radicals, Lincoln fractured the Constitution and the laws of war, he did use emancipation as a tool to win the war.

quote:

So if Lincoln didn't care much about slavery and the south could continue the practice why did the south want to separate?


The issues were more complex than you seem to be willing to grasp. Why didn't lincoln resort to the courts? Why did he force a conflict a Sumpter?






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theunknownknight
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Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2005
27121 posts

re: Serious question about Lincoln and the Civil War, no flame.


quote:

My ancestors owned slaves. They believed in white supremacy. They fought a war to preserve slavery. They were products of the time and I'm not ashamed of my family's past. Why should I be? I can't do anything about it.


Freed Blacks were around 8 times more likely to own slaves than whites. Was it about "white supremacy" with them as well?

NO. It was about M O N E Y. If a mass produced tractor existed at the time that picked cotton cheaper than slaves we wouldn't be having this conversation.






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RollTide1987
Alabama Fan
Pensacola, Florida
Member since Nov 2009
24432 posts

re: Serious question about Lincoln and the Civil War, no flame.


quote:

My ancestors owned slaves. They believed in white supremacy. They fought a war to preserve slavery. They were products of the time and I'm not ashamed of my family's past. Why should I be? I can't do anything about it.



Ditto.






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L.A.
New Orleans Saints Fan
Los Angeles
Member since Aug 2003
37528 posts

re: Serious question about Lincoln and the Civil War, no flame.


quote:

the Civil War was completely about keeping the states in the Union
True.

And why had those Southern states left the Union?






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