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constant cough 
New Orleans Saints Fan
Lafayette
Member since Jun 2007
28771 posts
| re: Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded (Posted on 11/20/12 at 9:26 am to TenTex)
quote:
with nearly all the movie centered in January 1865, with the push for approving of the 13th Amendment (abolishing slavery) by the House of Representatives at the end of that month.
Did they discuss how it only pertained to confederate states and how slavery was still legal in the north for some time later?
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Gmorgan4982 
LSU Fan
Hattiesburg, Miss.
Member since May 2005
90573 posts
 Online
| re: Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded (Posted on 11/20/12 at 9:26 am to AlaTiger)
Can I be against slavery and against starting a useless war and against putting those who speak out against the government in jail?
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AlaTiger
LSU Fan
Alabama
Member since Aug 2006
10038 posts
| re: Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded (Posted on 11/20/12 at 9:27 am to Mike da Tigah)
quote:
The only thing truly lost is the right to choose your own government and rulers as spelled out in this country's very own Declaration of Independence from Britain. Also lost, or rather slowly eroded since was state sovereignty and the concept of states governing themselves without the feds using their very own money as a hostage to be used against them if they don't fall in line.
I actually agree with all of that, Mike. Like I said, if not for the human slavery issue, I would be very sympathetic to the Confederacy's raison d'etre and its right to secede. I also see the Constitutional genius of having state's rights as a check and balance to the power of the Federal Government. It is the slavery thing that delegitimizes the cause of the South and trying to whitewash it over the past 150 years is the true lost cause.
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AlaTiger
LSU Fan
Alabama
Member since Aug 2006
10038 posts
| re: Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded (Posted on 11/20/12 at 9:32 am to Gmorgan4982)
quote:
Gmorgan4982 Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded Can I be against slavery and against starting a useless war and against putting those who speak out against the government in jail?
Yes, of course. I get what you are saying. I am speaking in light of the "Lincoln is a tyrant" talk when you consider the context of what he was dealing with. If he had done those things and there was no war, you would be absolutely correct. Woodrow Wilson and FDR did some really shady stuff during WWI and WWII as well. I am not fan's of them either, but the context is important.
I do not have a quarrel with the way many see Lincoln's treatment of the Constitution. But, we do not know how he would have handled Reconstruction and if he took extreme means to win the war and preserve the Union, I cannot say I blame him very much.
The South overreacted. If they had not seceded and gone to war, they could have kept their way of life and their slaves until it would have died a natural death by around World War I - by the 1920's at the latest. Industrialization would have killed it off finally. But, they were so afraid of losing power that they acted stupidly, at least regarding their own self-interests. Lincoln did not have a lot of choices, in my opinion.
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RollTide1987 
Alabama Fan
Pensacola, Florida
Member since Nov 2009
17735 posts
| re: Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded (Posted on 11/20/12 at 9:32 am to Patrick O Rly)
It's amazing the amount of neo-Confederates there are on this board. You have convinced yourselves that the South was by no means in the wrong and that Lincoln was the tyrant. You have convinced yourselves that slavery had absolutely nothing to do with the war and everything to do with tariffs. You have convinced yourselves that Lincoln was a tyrant who shredded the Constitution without being willing to see why he did what he did because you think the war he waged against the South was illegal and tyrannical anyway.
I think a lot of you have a mental block in your brains that keep you from reconciling your family's history with slavery. Here's my history. My father's ancestors were slave owners. To this day, there are African-American "members" of my family whose ancestors were either conceived in the Master's master bedroom or took the name of my ancestors when they were freed or escaped from the plantation.
But you know what? I don't care. That was 150 years ago. Their sins do not define who I am. I don't go looking for reasons to justify why they took up arms against the United States. I don't need to lie to myself about some stupid tariff that was passed in 1828 and became a non-issue by the mid-1830s. You should stop this denial and actually acknowledge what the primary cause of the war was. Bottom line: there were many differences between North and South in the years leading up to Lincoln's election. But all of those differences would have been moot if not for one issue: slavery.
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AlaTiger
LSU Fan
Alabama
Member since Aug 2006
10038 posts
| re: Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded (Posted on 11/20/12 at 9:33 am to RollTide1987)
Yep. You nailed it.
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mmcgrath
LSU Fan
New Jersey
Member since Feb 2010
2237 posts
| re: Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded (Posted on 11/20/12 at 9:36 am to constant cough)
quote:
Did they discuss how it only pertained to confederate states and how slavery was still legal in the north for some time later?
Do you mean the Emancipation Proclamation instead of the 13th? The Emancipation Proclamation was like an executive order. The 13th put it into the Constitution.
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Mike da Tigah
Ft. New Richmond
Member since Feb 2005
37258 posts
| re: Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded (Posted on 11/20/12 at 9:38 am to AlaTiger)
quote:
I actually agree with all of that, Mike. Like I said, if not for the human slavery issue, I would be very sympathetic to the Confederacy's raison d'etre and its right to secede. I also see the Constitutional genius of having state's rights as a check and balance to the power of the Federal Government. It is the slavery thing that delegitimizes the cause of the South and trying to whitewash it over the past 150 years is the true lost cause.
It's never been at the heart of the true railroad job to me, and I really wish widgets were the focus because the real issue would not be so damn clouded so people couldn't see it.
Truth be know though, if slaves weren't even an issue one way or the other, the union would still have mustere troops and invaded the south because of their potential lost cause, or rather loss in revenue and geography, but mostly revenue and the mouth of the Mississippi Rive in NOLA being lost. That's one thing that fueled the need to shed so much blood. It most certainly wasn't the Union's desire to slay their own for the plight of the blacks, not the same who refused them entrance into their states. It was money, or the loss of it. That's why the revolutionists who were once very big on freedom to choose their own government and rulers became the king who refused to allow the rebels to leave without a blood bath.
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constant cough
New Orleans Saints Fan
Lafayette
Member since Jun 2007
28771 posts
| re: Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded (Posted on 11/20/12 at 9:39 am to RollTide1987)
quote:
Bottom line: there were many differences between North and South in the years leading up to Lincoln's election. But all of those differences would have been moot if not for one issue: slavery.
The fact remains that New York and Boston Harbor were the two biggest slave ports. The North, Yankees were the ones that sailed ships down to Africa, purchased slaves then resold them in America.
You had race riots in New York leading up to the war. Yankees killing blacks in the streets.
Then there's the emancipation proclamation originally only pertaining to confederate states and not the union states. Which seems to contradict yankee claims of fighting the war to free the slaves.
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dewster 
Maryland Fan
TN
Member since Aug 2006
4747 posts
| re: Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded (Posted on 11/20/12 at 9:40 am to TenTex)
Did they go into detail about his suspension of habeas corpus or his treatment of any journalist critical of his presidency?
Seriously...you look to Hollywood to get grounded?
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Gmorgan4982
LSU Fan
Hattiesburg, Miss.
Member since May 2005
90573 posts
Online
| re: Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded (Posted on 11/20/12 at 9:40 am to AlaTiger)
quote:
If he had done those things and there was no war, you would be absolutely correct.
But he started the war and I believe slavery would have gone away without a war just as it had in many European nations.
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RollTide1987
Alabama Fan
Pensacola, Florida
Member since Nov 2009
17735 posts
| re: Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded (Posted on 11/20/12 at 9:44 am to constant cough)
quote:
The fact remains that New York and Boston Harbor were the two biggest slave ports. The North, Yankees were the ones that sailed ships down to Africa, purchased slaves then resold them in America.
You are correct that New York and Boston were the two biggest slave ports, but you fail to mention that this was true pre-United States. Not only that, but the North American-International Slave Trade ended in 1808 - decades before the outbreak of civil war.
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RollTide1987
Alabama Fan
Pensacola, Florida
Member since Nov 2009
17735 posts
| re: Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded (Posted on 11/20/12 at 9:45 am to dewster)
quote:
Did they go into detail about his suspension of habeas corpus or his treatment of any journalist critical of his presidency?
Yes they did actually.
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RollTide1987
Alabama Fan
Pensacola, Florida
Member since Nov 2009
17735 posts
| re: Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded (Posted on 11/20/12 at 9:46 am to constant cough)
quote:
Then there's the emancipation proclamation originally only pertaining to confederate states and not the union states. Which seems to contradict yankee claims of fighting the war to free the slaves.
The war was not fought to free slaves but the war would not have happened if not for slavery. What can you not understand about this?
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Lsupimp
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Nov 2003
25284 posts
| re: Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded (Posted on 11/20/12 at 9:47 am to TenTex)
To the OP-you should have known this would happen, that you would be expected to anticipate every argument under the sun or face ridicule. 
Anyhow, I'm looking forward to seeing the film. 
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TheHiddenFlask 
Clemson Fan
The Welsh red light district
Member since Jul 2008
16420 posts
| re: Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded (Posted on 11/20/12 at 9:47 am to RollTide1987)
quote:
It's amazing the amount of neo-Confederates there are on this board
I think the vast majority of people here are playing devil's advocate.
Please see my previous post in the thread.
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HubbaBubba 
USA Fan
Bloemee, TX
Member since Oct 2010
5065 posts
| re: Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded (Posted on 11/20/12 at 9:48 am to RollTide1987)
Can't wait to see 'MLK - The Movie'. I'm sure it'll be factually accurate and show his drug use, womanizing and plagiarism, right?
Likely would cause Mohaamed type reactions, if it did.
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PillageUrVillage
LSU Fan
Mordor
Member since Mar 2011
1893 posts
| re: Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded (Posted on 11/20/12 at 9:49 am to ChoupiqueSacalait)
quote:
The Real Lincoln
Another good read
I know, on its face it looks like a completely biased book. But, read it. You'd be pleasantly surprised.
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Godfather1
LSU Fan
Home Sweet Home SE Louisiana
Member since Oct 2006
26646 posts
| re: Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded (Posted on 11/20/12 at 9:50 am to AlaTiger)
quote:
Why villify Lincoln and give the South that he fought against a pass? If Lincoln was wrong (and I see the merit of that argument based on what he did to the Constitution), his error must be seen in the light of what he was fighting against.
Go back and read your history.
The Emancipation Proclamation that people so herald Lincoln for was little more than a punitive measure against the South (which Lincoln never viewed as a sovereign nation despite secession). It did nothing to free the slaves in states that didn't secede.
The myth of Lincoln as this great abolitionist is just that...a myth.
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dewster
Maryland Fan
TN
Member since Aug 2006
4747 posts
| re: Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded (Posted on 11/20/12 at 9:51 am to Godfather1)
quote:
The myth of Lincoln as this great abolitionist is just that...a myth.
I wonder how things would have been different had he not been assacinated.
Part of his legacy is influenced by people who believe that he was something he wasn't.....only because their interest happened to be aligned against the south.
This post was edited on 11/20 at 9:58 am
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