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kywildcatfanone 
Kentucky Fan
Wildcat Country!
Member since Oct 2012
6424 posts
| re: Hostess and Union to Arbitration (Posted on 11/19/12 at 8:43 pm to 50Mullets)
Unions = downfall of America. 
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PRK 
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2009
7968 posts
| re: Hostess and Union to Arbitration (Posted on 11/19/12 at 8:45 pm to Lsut81)
The Hostess CEO received a 300% raise, while 9 Hostess executives received 60% to 100% raises -- all the while Hostess was entering its second bankruptcy and the company stopped paying into employee pensions AND asked workers to take a ~10% pay cut. They make less than $20 an hour already.
Go ahead. Blame unions.
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BFIV
Member since Apr 2012
1000 posts
| re: Hostess and Union to Arbitration (Posted on 11/19/12 at 9:08 pm to 50Mullets)
quote:
No, it prevents merit based promotions. It encourages promotions based on either "I like you." or "I don't like you." except that it is the union leaders of the local chapter that get to make the decision, not the business owner. All it accomplishes is replacing competition with cronyism.
That's an interesting argument and it is one which I have heard before. When an employee bids on and accepts an opening in a skilled category, that employee must complete an apprenticeship to "top out" in pay for that particular job skill. He has promoted himself by mastering the skills required for that job. There are no union leaders of the local chapter that get to make that decision. Within a union shop, promotions and job advances are made within the confines of seniority and qualifications and most all contracts that I have seen also contain the stipulation that the employee must be able to learn that particular job and do it correctly, thus becoming "qualified". If not, they are demoted to their previous job and must wait on another higher rated job opening for which they can submit their bid according to their seniority and again, become "qualified". If the employee has the ability to learn that new job, then he has earned his "merit promotion". If it isn't handled by the specifications of the contract, then the employee has a grievance which will ultimately be settled by the arbitration process. Although they have the right to do so in many instances, a business owner in a non-union shop would be quite foolish to promote or demote based on "I like you" or "I don't like you". And successful business owners know that.
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VOR 
New Orleans Saints Fan
New Orleans
Member since Apr 2009
33004 posts
| re: Hostess and Union to Arbitration (Posted on 11/19/12 at 9:34 pm to Lsut81)
quote:
Hostess and Union to Arbitration
This is fricking ridiculous... The bankruptcy judge orders something and the Union won't agree, so Hostess moves to shut down, and now the Judge is pushing them towards arbitration...
You started off on the wrong foot. There's a difference between mediation and arbitration. A significant one.
Plus, Hostess voluntarily chose bankruptcy. The judge has the power to enforce contracts, including those that call for mediation.
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Bunk Moreland 
Michigan Fan
Detroit, MI
Member since Dec 2010
3217 posts
| re: Hostess and Union to Arbitration (Posted on 11/19/12 at 9:35 pm to Lsut81)
(Vor beat me to it)
Need link. Pretty sure that the mediation process proposed here is completely voluntary and you aren't bound to shite due to those discussions, versus an arbitration where someone puts a number on the case.
This post was edited on 11/19 at 9:36 pm
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RogerTheShrubber
LSU Fan
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
71823 posts
| re: Hostess and Union to Arbitration (Posted on 11/19/12 at 9:36 pm to PRK)
quote:
Go ahead. Blame unions.
Many unions fricking suck but it's Hostess's own problem entering into contracts with the unions in the first place.
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Tiger Authority
LSU Fan
Member since Jul 2007
29230 posts
| re: Hostess and Union to Arbitration (Posted on 11/19/12 at 9:38 pm to RogerTheShrubber)
No doubt they were horribly managed as well. This is a combination of a lot, but if you have a heavy union presence it certainly isn't going to make restructuring outside of the Bankruptcy context a viable endeavor.
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BFIV
Member since Apr 2012
1000 posts
| re: Hostess and Union to Arbitration (Posted on 11/19/12 at 9:40 pm to VOR)
quote:
The judge has the power to enforce contracts, including those that call for mediation.
And the judge has the authority to dissolve all the contracts, too.
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VOR
New Orleans Saints Fan
New Orleans
Member since Apr 2009
33004 posts
| re: Hostess and Union to Arbitration (Posted on 11/19/12 at 9:41 pm to BFIV)
quote:
And the judge has the authority to dissolve all the contracts, too.
That's a bit of an overstatement.
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RogerTheShrubber
LSU Fan
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
71823 posts
| re: Hostess and Union to Arbitration (Posted on 11/19/12 at 9:41 pm to Tiger Authority)
I have no idea why Hostess would want to deal with a bakers union for it's employees. I can see the benefit of unions for things like construction trades, etc....but no reason to overpay unskilled labor. You can't compete with overseas production.
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Tiger Authority
LSU Fan
Member since Jul 2007
29230 posts
| re: Hostess and Union to Arbitration (Posted on 11/19/12 at 9:45 pm to RogerTheShrubber)
quote:
I have no idea why Hostess would want to deal with a bakers union for it's employees. I can see the benefit of unions for things like construction trades, etc....but no reason to overpay unskilled labor. You can't compete with overseas production.
I heard something insane about how the unions had contracted such that, in some instances, the twinkies couldn't be transported in the same truck as other types of snacks. I mean, wtf. Terrible management, terrible unions, bankrupt. Color me not surprised.
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50Mullets
LSU Fan
Member since Oct 2012
1059 posts
| re: Hostess and Union to Arbitration (Posted on 11/19/12 at 9:51 pm to BFIV)
quote:
a business owner in a non-union shop would be quite foolish to promote or demote based on "I like you" or "I don't like you". And successful business owners know that.
So if you already say this isn't a problem, what purpose does the union serve?
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50Mullets
LSU Fan
Member since Oct 2012
1059 posts
| re: Hostess and Union to Arbitration (Posted on 11/19/12 at 9:53 pm to Tiger Authority)
quote:
twinkies couldn't be transported in the same truck as other types of snacks
Is that why that truck Woody Harrelson found was full of snowballs?
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RogerTheShrubber
LSU Fan
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
71823 posts
| re: Hostess and Union to Arbitration (Posted on 11/19/12 at 9:56 pm to BFIV)
quote:
. Although they have the right to do so in many instances, a business owner in a non-union shop would be quite foolish to promote or demote based on "I like you" or "I don't like you". And successful business owners know that.
Friend of mine who runs a hotel is frustrated because he can't pay his best employee more based on union rules. The union that represents the workers actually voted against a pay raise this year and he knows he can't keep this employee without paying more.
Merit based on productivity is a very good reason to give raises and promotions.
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Tiger Authority
LSU Fan
Member since Jul 2007
29230 posts
| re: Hostess and Union to Arbitration (Posted on 11/19/12 at 9:58 pm to 50Mullets)
quote:
Is that why that truck Woody Harrelson found was full of snowballs?
I like that movie.
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BFIV
Member since Apr 2012
1000 posts
| re: Hostess and Union to Arbitration (Posted on 11/19/12 at 10:05 pm to 50Mullets)
quote:
quote:
a business owner in a non-union shop would be quite foolish to promote or demote based on "I like you" or "I don't like you". And successful business owners know that.
So if you already say this isn't a problem, what purpose does the union serve?
The particular successful business owner has learned or knows that by treating his employees fairly, with integrity and respect he will, in all probability, never have "union" problems. Unfortunately, there are still business owners who have yet to learn this lesson. Hence, there are still unions. And the term "successful business owner" means more than simply being profitable. There are degrees of "success" and different connotations. As an example, I would point to the current "problems" that Wal-Mart is addressing with its Black Friday employee protests. Not for one second would I imply that Wal-Mart is not a successful business, but some of their employees certainly believe that Wal-Mart is not treating them fairly, with integrity and respect. In the example you quoted, I was referring more to the small business owners instead of the corporations and large blue collar factories. I should have made that point more clearly. I apologize for not doing that.
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RogerTheShrubber
LSU Fan
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
71823 posts
| re: Hostess and Union to Arbitration (Posted on 11/19/12 at 10:08 pm to BFIV)
There will always be employees who think the employer isn't treating them worth a damn. That will never change.
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Tiger Authority
LSU Fan
Member since Jul 2007
29230 posts
| re: Hostess and Union to Arbitration (Posted on 11/19/12 at 10:08 pm to BFIV)
quote:
The particular successful business owner has learned or knows that by treating his employees fairly, with integrity and respect he will, in all probability, never have "union" problems.
delusional
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BFIV
Member since Apr 2012
1000 posts
| re: Hostess and Union to Arbitration (Posted on 11/19/12 at 10:10 pm to VOR)
quote:
quote:
And the judge has the authority to dissolve all the contracts, too.
That's a bit of an overstatement.
You are quite right, VOR. I should have said that the bankruptcy judge has the authority to dissolve all the labor contracts. At least that is my understanding of current law. If that is not correct, then I ask that someone who knows for sure to educate me on this aspect of bankruptcy proceedings.
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BFIV
Member since Apr 2012
1000 posts
| re: Hostess and Union to Arbitration (Posted on 11/19/12 at 10:14 pm to Tiger Authority)
quote:
I heard something insane about how the unions had contracted such that, in some instances, the twinkies couldn't be transported in the same truck as other types of snacks. I mean, wtf. Terrible management, terrible unions, bankrupt. Color me not surprised.
I wish I had a copy of that contract. I bet it would make for some interesting reading.
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