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Bayou Sam 
LSU Fan
Snake and Jake's Christmas Club
Member since Aug 2009
4113 posts
| re: Are Republicans the true Marxists? (Posted on 11/16/12 at 12:52 pm to Freauxzen)
Well, to me the point is to criticize materialist explanations, libertarian or Marxist, as being inadequate to the reality of people's lives and motivations.
I think Marx was completely right, though, in pointing out that capitalism is the biggest driver of a materialistic relativism.
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Fat Bastard 
New Orleans Saints Fan
Paradise
Member since Mar 2009
13453 posts
| re: Are Republicans the true Marxists? (Posted on 11/16/12 at 1:11 pm to TheHiddenFlask)
quote:
Step 1: Make a stupid arse "point"
Step 2: Get blasted
Step 3: Claim that your genius just can't be understood by plebians.
It is par for the course from him. I have laid out past threads where he was owned more than a used Cadillac. he is in DENIAL.
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Bayou Sam
LSU Fan
Snake and Jake's Christmas Club
Member since Aug 2009
4113 posts
| re: Are Republicans the true Marxists? (Posted on 11/16/12 at 1:27 pm to Fat Bastard)
Rawr!
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RogerTheShrubber
LSU Fan
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
71876 posts
 Online
| re: Are Republicans the true Marxists? (Posted on 11/16/12 at 1:35 pm to Fat Bastard)
quote:
It is par for the course from him. I have laid out past threads where he was owned more than a used Cadillac. he is in DENIAL.
I think he is just trying to dig too deeply into political philosophy and make obscure connections.
He has a point and it's practical on some levels but not in the sense he originally claimed.
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Bayou Sam
LSU Fan
Snake and Jake's Christmas Club
Member since Aug 2009
4113 posts
| re: Are Republicans the true Marxists? (Posted on 11/16/12 at 1:37 pm to RogerTheShrubber)
Thanks for acknowledging this.
I think there the confusion was based on my title, which was the title of the blog post. I never meant to suggest that Republicans actually have a substantially marxian ideology. 
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LSUnKaty
LSU Fan
Katy, TX
Member since Dec 2008
2274 posts
| re: Are Republicans the true Marxists? (Posted on 11/16/12 at 1:42 pm to Bayou Sam)
quote:
I mean materialism in the metaphysical sense.
I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean Marxism=Capitalism?
Can you compare and contrast the true nature of the apparently different concepts of "materialism" as relates to Marxism vs Capitalism?
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RogerTheShrubber
LSU Fan
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
71876 posts
Online
| re: Are Republicans the true Marxists? (Posted on 11/16/12 at 1:46 pm to Bayou Sam)
quote:
I think there the confusion was based on my title, which was the title of the blog post. I never meant to suggest that Republicans actually have a substantially marxian ideology.
Well, maybe you can understand why the reactions to your thread title as it suggested outcomes IMO.
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Bayou Sam
LSU Fan
Snake and Jake's Christmas Club
Member since Aug 2009
4113 posts
| re: Are Republicans the true Marxists? (Posted on 11/16/12 at 1:50 pm to LSUnKaty)
I mean materialism, as in: everything is reducible to some material cause. So, for instance, someone ascribes to an ideology because said ideology is just an expression of their "economic class interest."
As opposed to materialism in the colloquial sense; i.e., being driven by a desire for stuff, rather than being "selfless" or "altruistic".
This post was edited on 11/16 at 1:52 pm
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LSUnKaty
LSU Fan
Katy, TX
Member since Dec 2008
2274 posts
| re: Are Republicans the true Marxists? (Posted on 11/16/12 at 2:17 pm to Bayou Sam)
quote:
I mean materialism, as in: everything is reducible to some material cause.
Then I disagree with your opinion that certain forms of libertarianism are even more materialist and relativist than the most leftist of Marxist.
It is possible that 'non-relativistic values' that are a priori and independent of material causes could exist for some. Therefore, the very idea of "values" is NOT obviously a materialist notion.
quote:
So, for instance, someone ascribes to an ideology because said ideology is just an expression of their "economic class interest."
Republicans don't behave this way, it just happens to be the opinion of a majority of them that progressives and populists do so.
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WildTchoupitoulas
Member since Jan 2010
10671 posts
| re: Are Republicans the true Marxists? (Posted on 11/16/12 at 2:25 pm to Freauxzen)
quote:
The term is too fluid, and often too broad, to make this kind of statement.
Now that's ironic.
The term has a very specific meaning, it's just that American conservatives use it to describe everything they don't agree with, so it loses its meaning to them.
What many probably don't realize is that the anarchists on the board are probably closest to marxists than any liberals.
In Marxism the state does not own the means of production because in the worker's utopia there is no ownership - AND THERE IS NO STATE.
Many confuse the interim period of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, which occurs as the workers seize the means of production after the revolution, with Marxism.
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WildTchoupitoulas
Member since Jan 2010
10671 posts
| re: Are Republicans the true Marxists? (Posted on 11/16/12 at 2:36 pm to Mike da Tigah)
quote:
Neither you nor the OP did anything to establish a foundation to demonstrate how Republicans are in favor of the goverment controlling the markets by government agencies.
That's not even Marxism.
I think thta's a part of Sam's point, there is a lack of understanding of what Marxism is.
It is NOT a Socialist Democracy.
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NC_Tigah
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2003
40106 posts
| re: Are Republicans the true Marxists? (Posted on 11/16/12 at 2:41 pm to WildTchoupitoulas)
quote:
In Marxism the state does not own the means of production because in the worker's utopia there is no ownership - AND THERE IS NO STATE.
Many confuse the interim period of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, which occurs as the workers seize the means of production after the revolution, with Marxism.
Probably technical, but Marxism usually refers to Marx's sociologic and economic theories of determination. Marxist communism is stateless egalitarianism
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UncleFestersLegs
Columbia MO
Member since Nov 2010
503 posts
| re: Are Republicans the true Marxists? (Posted on 11/16/12 at 2:46 pm to Bayou Sam)
quote:
Perhaps you can say why it's stupid?
quote:
the fantasy that politics is simply about everybody getting the best deal for themselves is absurd. We have an instinct for solidarity, not just self interest.
$2 billion spent for a job that pays $400k. But it's all about "solidarity."
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LSUnKaty
LSU Fan
Katy, TX
Member since Dec 2008
2274 posts
| re: Are Republicans the true Marxists? (Posted on 11/16/12 at 2:46 pm to WildTchoupitoulas)
quote:
The term has a very specific meaning
Marxism in simplest terms is the repudiation of private property, and as a result market based capitalism, in favor of a collectivist worker's utopia.
Free market capitalism is consistent with individual liberty and equality of opportunity while Marxist Socialism requires the subjugation of personal freedom to the "good of the collective" and is consistent with equality of outcomes.
Liberals on this board are definitely closest to Marxists than any anarchists.
What I would like to know is how and by whom will the outcomes which are supposedly good for the collective be determined.
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Bayou Sam
LSU Fan
Snake and Jake's Christmas Club
Member since Aug 2009
4113 posts
| re: Are Republicans the true Marxists? (Posted on 11/16/12 at 3:25 pm to LSUnKaty)
The idea of "values" is relativistic--i.e., it borrows from economic terminology to describe concepts or ideas. So a "value" is there "what one values," which is of course subjective.
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Freauxzen 
Wisc-Milwaukee Fan
Louisiana
Member since Feb 2006
16889 posts
| re: Are Republicans the true Marxists? (Posted on 11/16/12 at 3:35 pm to WildTchoupitoulas)
quote:
Now that's ironic.
The term has a very specific meaning, it's just that American conservatives use it to describe everything they don't agree with, so it loses its meaning to them.
It's not "American Conservatives" who decided to do this though. It was the academic, who then cannibalized postmodernism under the entire banner of "Marxism." Even Criticisms of marxism have then been redefined merely as Marxist reactions to Marxism, or some would make you think.
I'd argue that yes, too many people throw Marxism and/or Socialism around to mean anything to the left. That's fine. But that's not where I was coming from.
Side Note: My main exposure to the breadth of Marxism is in the literary/cultural studies, not political theory, fields.
This post was edited on 11/16 at 4:15 pm
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TrueTiger
LSU Fan
Republic of West Florida
Member since Sep 2004
2565 posts
| re: Are Republicans the true Marxists? (Posted on 11/16/12 at 4:04 pm to Bayou Sam)
I'm a pretty big fan of Groucho Marx. That's good classic comedy.
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RogerTheShrubber
LSU Fan
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
71876 posts
Online
| re: Are Republicans the true Marxists? (Posted on 11/16/12 at 4:10 pm to Freauxzen)
quote:
Even Criticism of marxism have then been redefined merely as Marxist reactions to Marxism
For all practical purposes, that's exactly what it is.
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Freauxzen
Wisc-Milwaukee Fan
Louisiana
Member since Feb 2006
16889 posts
| re: Are Republicans the true Marxists? (Posted on 11/16/12 at 4:56 pm to RogerTheShrubber)
quote:
For all practical purposes, that's exactly what it is.
Bingo.
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Bayou Sam
LSU Fan
Snake and Jake's Christmas Club
Member since Aug 2009
4113 posts
| re: Are Republicans the true Marxists? (Posted on 11/16/12 at 6:16 pm to Freauxzen)
quote:
Freauxzen
Yes, you make fair points. I'd summarize later academic Marxism (especially in lit studies) as basically Marxism without the economic determinism.
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