Are Republicans the true Marxists? - Page 3 - TigerDroppings.com

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BugAC
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Oct 2007
18478 posts

re: Are Republicans the true Marxists?


quote:

But it seems that today’s Republican Party is dominated by a perverse economic materialism that’s positively Marxist in its mechanical determinism


Please explain how the Republican's are marxist. This article does not do it.

You link it, and think it is fact, when it is an opinion piece with no statistics or any examples to compare to marxism.

I assume you are trying to equate capitalism to marxism which is completely false.






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Bunsbert Montcroff
Arizona Fan
Phoenix AZ
Member since Jan 2008
4514 posts

re: Are Republicans the true Marxists?


quote:

This is far too reductive of conservative thought, and Marxist though, for that matter.

that "social being determines consciousness" is a primary tenet of orthodox marxism. by that standard it isn't reductive in the least.






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Bayou Sam
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Member since Aug 2009
4945 posts

re: Are Republicans the true Marxists?


quote:

Neither you nor the OP did anything to establish a foundation to demonstrate how Republicans are in favor of the goverment controlling the markets by government agencies.


Good god where did I say that?

If this is what you think I meant, then you do not understand the OP






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Bayou Sam
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re: Are Republicans the true Marxists?


quote:

that "social being determines consciousness" is a primary tenet of orthodox marxism. by that standard it isn't reductive in the least.


Is worth repeating!






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Bayou Sam
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re: Are Republicans the true Marxists?


quote:

The quotation did an extremely poor job of trying to confirm your point.


No, actually it did just fine. Maybe you don't read so well. Or maybe the point just flew over your head. I don't know. Hope you do better next time.






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Bunsbert Montcroff
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Phoenix AZ
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re: Are Republicans the true Marxists?


quote:

So "non-Marxist" left wingers don't think this?

i think the question that the post [from a paleoconservative, religiously-traditionalist journal BTW] ultimately suggests is this: what are the implications for conservative thought if conservatives adopt dialectical materialism? and what are the implications if they adopt the kind of economic reductionism that materialism implies? and whither the culture war if that is the case?






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Freauxzen
USA Fan
Louisiana
Member since Feb 2006
21472 posts

re: Are Republicans the true Marxists?


quote:

that "social being determines consciousness" is a primary tenet of orthodox marxism. by that standard it isn't reductive in the least.


I read that as "the basic premise.." not "basic premises," hence the comment.

And I mean reductive in that sense that true Marxism incurs social change from said beliefs. That the tenets build necessary solutions which the movement is organized under.

Because conservatives "believe something is happening," doesn't make them believe it is right or how it "should" work. How far we take our ideological conclusions is a different discussion.



This post was edited on 11/16 at 11:47 am


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Freauxzen
USA Fan
Louisiana
Member since Feb 2006
21472 posts

re: Are Republicans the true Marxists?


quote:

i think the question that the post [from a paleoconservative, religiously-traditionalist journal BTW] ultimately suggests is this: what are the implications for conservative thought if conservatives adopt dialectical materialism? and what are the implications if they adopt the kind of economic reductionism that materialism implies? and whither the culture war if that is the case?


See above, I ask the same question, far less eloquently.

And they won't because:

quote:

"social being determines consciousness"


Would be

quote:

"spiritual (read:moral, religious, ethical or etc.) being determines consciousness"


For real conservatives.

I wouldn't argue against Neocons having tilts of non-conservative thought.



This post was edited on 11/16 at 11:56 am


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RogerTheShrubber
LSU Fan
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
90778 posts

re: Are Republicans the true Marxists?


quote:


Please explain how the Republican's are marxist. This article does not do it.


He's arguing philosophy. It's basically a rabbit trail that ends before it gets to it's final destination






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Bayou Sam
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re: Are Republicans the true Marxists?


quote:

Bunsbert Montcroff


Clearly the folks on this board see "Marxism" and can't get past "high taxes".

Anyways, I know you're interested in secularization questions. Have you looked at Brad Gregory's new book, the Unintended Reformation? Mark Lilla has a pretty stimulating review here: LINK






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Bayou Sam
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re: Are Republicans the true Marxists?


quote:

Freauxzen


I'm not sure what you're asking.

As far as the question of the conservative movement, it's an interesting paradox. One of the key features of Marx's analysis is that capitalism lays the groundwork for marxism; i.e., it reveals that all "values" are just products of material conditions--the market, let's say. This gives way to Marx's insights against the paradoxes of the capitalist system, which are, after all, based precisely on the materialist premise and how he expects it to unfold.

So the point is that some libertarian arguments against liberalism go a long way toward actually embracing the materialism that libertarians ought to reject if they would reject Marx's philosophy. They are, in other words, playing into the hands of the marxian materialist dialectic. The world really has become what Marx predicted it would--the old values have broken down, etc.



This post was edited on 11/16 at 12:01 pm


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RogerTheShrubber
LSU Fan
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
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re: Are Republicans the true Marxists?


quote:


Because conservatives "believe something is happening," doesn't make them believe it is right or how it "should" work. How far we take our ideological conclusions is a different discussion.


Which is the problem with the argument, it assumes some things many don't believe to be true. You can make an argument out of it, but there are FAR too many assumptions being made (I certainly don't believe the Dems are simply reacting to social conditions) to make a strong case. It's a flimsy philosophical stance






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LSUnKaty
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Katy, TX
Member since Dec 2008
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re: Are Republicans the true Marxists?


quote:

which is the materialist premises implicit in many republican arguments
Maybe materialist in the same sense as Randian Selfishness.

Don't tell me you are too dense the understand the subtle distinctions there.






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Bunsbert Montcroff
Arizona Fan
Phoenix AZ
Member since Jan 2008
4514 posts

re: Are Republicans the true Marxists?


quote:

Anyways, I know you're interested in secularization questions. Have you looked at Brad Gregory's new book, the Unintended Reformation? Mark Lilla has a pretty stimulating review here: LINK


thanks for the review - i knew he was working on it, so i'll have to check it out.

plus my own research deals with the memory and commemoration of the reformation [but in nineteenth-century germany]. i actually know a few of his graduate students and have followed his stuff since "the other confessional history". so this one should be good.






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RogerTheShrubber
LSU Fan
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
90778 posts

re: Are Republicans the true Marxists?


quote:


As far as the question of the conservative movement, it's an interesting paradox. One of the key features of Marx's analysis is that capitalism lays the groundwork for marxism; i.e., it reveals that all "values" are just products of material conditions--the market, let's say. This gives way to Marx's insights against the paradoxes of the capitalist system, which are, after all, based precisely on the materialist premise and how he expects it to unfold.

So the point is that some libertarian arguments against liberalism go a long way toward actually embracing the materialism that libertarians ought to reject if they would reject Marx's philosophy. They are, in other words, playing into the hands of the marxian materialist dialectic. The world really has become what Marx predicted it would--the old values have broken down, etc.


Which doesn't equal "true marxist."






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Bayou Sam
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re: Are Republicans the true Marxists?


I mean materialism in the metaphysical sense.





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Bayou Sam
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Snake and Jake's Christmas Club
Member since Aug 2009
4945 posts

re: Are Republicans the true Marxists?


Well, it's obviously a rhetorical point to some extent, but the working idea of what it means to be a "true" Marxist is something like this: who is more of the Marxist, those who share his deepest metaphysical premises, or those whose policies look more like his on the superficial level?

Look, obviously I don't think--and neither, in my reading, does the first things blogger--tat Republicans are really Marxists in any substantial sense. The point is that their arguments follow a paradoxically marxian logic.






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Freauxzen
USA Fan
Louisiana
Member since Feb 2006
21472 posts

re: Are Republicans the true Marxists?


quote:

As far as the question of the conservative movement, it's an interesting paradox. One of the key features of Marx's analysis is that capitalism lays the groundwork for marxism; i.e., it reveals that all "values" are just products of material conditions--the market, let's say. This gives way to Marx's insights against the paradoxes of the capitalist system, which are, after all, based precisely on the materialist premise and how he expects it to unfold.


Which was where I was going and I thought that would come through. Marx believes Capitalism was a part of the road, that it would allow certain events/cultural shifts to produce an end result. One that was driven by the class difference, which of course is the basis of materiailsm. He didn't "believe in Capitalism," as a overall ideology, but he used it as a springboard.

But none of that means Republicans/Conservatives/Libertarians Marxist. That's where you started. Your quote above is a better question, and discussion, than lightly trolling accusation of equating Republicans to Marxists, just because they believe a process may be happening.

It would be better to have a discussion around the "people like free stuff, does that mean Marx is right or wrong? What should Conservatives do?" Rather than, "Conservatives believe people like free stuff, therefore Marxists."







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Freauxzen
USA Fan
Louisiana
Member since Feb 2006
21472 posts

re: Are Republicans the true Marxists?


quote:

The point is that their arguments follow a paradoxically marxian logic.


And Marx only extends/revises/distorts a capitalist logic, he didn't create something new.






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Godfather1
Army Fan
SE Louisiana
Member since Oct 2006
31673 posts

re: Are Republicans the true Marxists?


Congratulations. Your thinking is quite outside the box. I'm sure we're all very impressed.

/sarcasm






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