8/29 Matchday Thread - Page 14 - TigerDroppings.com

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LSUSOBEAST1
LSU Fan
Member since Aug 2008
28426 posts

re: 8/29 Matchday Thread


To be fair, they bought into the system for a few months. But it obviously wasn't working and it takes a special manager to keep your players' trust when you aren't winning. Especially when you're at Chelsea.





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BleedPurpleGold
LSU Fan
New Orleans
Member since Apr 2005
15245 posts

re: 8/29 Matchday Thread


I guess I come from an old school mentality in that I think you play for the shirt, not yourself. If you don't buy into what the manager is doing you don't throw a temper tantrum. You do what you're asked and perform as best you can to help the club win.

I'm not saying I'm correct, or that my ideas are the only way to do it. Just how I feel. The club always comes before yourself.






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LSUSOBEAST1
LSU Fan
Member since Aug 2008
28426 posts

re: 8/29 Matchday Thread


quote:

The club always comes before yourself.


And to go along with that, I think AVB put his system ahead of the club.

I'm not opposed to players complaining when something isn't going right. I don't expect players to accept mediocrity, grit their teeth and do what the manager says just because he said it. There is a big difference between refusing to play for the club and being upset because of the manager. Say what you want about John Terry, but on the pitch he gives 100% for his club. He's a shitbag, but he is loyal to Chelsea.

I always think back to one of my favorite stories from Rafa. It goes:

Liverpool was in training the day before a big match. In that training session, Rafa told the players to perform an exercise where they were supposed to sprint 1 km. Of course all of the players obliged. After a certain distance Rafa called them back and said: "Why would ya'll do this just because I said so"? "Why didn't any of you object and say 'this doesn't make any sense, why are we doing this'?" (it's a lot better to hear in his Spanish accent)

His point was that while it is good to respect your manager, it is more important to think. Don't do something that is obviously a bad idea just because the manager said to. He went on to say that blind respect for managers in England was one of the problems with the game.




This post was edited on 9/29 at 4:20 pm


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BleedPurpleGold
LSU Fan
New Orleans
Member since Apr 2005
15245 posts

re: 8/29 Matchday Thread


quote:

And to go along with that, I think AVB put his system ahead of the club.



Wasn't the point of the hire to set a basis for the future? To install a new system that would take Chelsea to the cutting edge of contemporary football tactics?

quote:

I'm not opposed to players complaining when something isn't going right. I don't think for one second that players should accept mediocrity, grit their teeth and do what the manager says just because he said it.


I think there are ways to constructively criticize a manager. I don't think that's how the Chelsea old guard handled it.

quote:

His point was that while it is good to respect your manager, it is more important to think. Don't do something that is obviously a bad idea just because the manager said to. He went on to say that blind respect for managers in England was one of the problems with the game.


I'm just going to disagree with this. While I like the essence of what he's saying, its a slippery slope. With that type of mentality players can just do what they want because they don't agree with it.






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LSUSOBEAST1
LSU Fan
Member since Aug 2008
28426 posts

re: 8/29 Matchday Thread


quote:

Wasn't the point of the hire to set a basis for the future? To install a new system that would take Chelsea to the cutting edge of contemporary football tactics?



And at what point is that abandoned? Is the fact that they went on to win an FA Cup, CL and are now top of the table evidence enough that the players were right to some extent? Once again, as nice as it is to think that AVB should have been given time, hindsight shows us that Roman made the right decision.

quote:

With that type of mentality players can just do what they want because they don't agree with it.


Not what he's saying at all. I guess you have to read his book to really understand what he was getting at. Like Bho said, this isn't U8 where the manager is infallible. That was Rafa's point. Think.



This post was edited on 9/29 at 4:31 pm


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LSUSOBEAST1
LSU Fan
Member since Aug 2008
28426 posts

re: 8/29 Matchday Thread


Similarly, I would have hoped Gerrard/Carragher would have stepped up and said something to upper management during the Woy debacle. Keeping their mouth shut would have been a disservice to the club and fans IMO.


This post was edited on 9/29 at 4:34 pm


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BleedPurpleGold
LSU Fan
New Orleans
Member since Apr 2005
15245 posts

re: 8/29 Matchday Thread


quote:

Is the fact that they went on to win an FA Cup, CL and are now top of the table evidence enough that the players were right to some extent?


It doesn't matter if the players are right. The players don't run the club. The manager and the front office does. Their job is to implement what the club is trying to do, not what they want to do themselves.

quote:

hindsight shows us that Roman made the right decision.


Roman did make the right decision. The players did not. It's the front office's job to decide if the manager works or not, not the players. Mutiny is rarely justified in any profession.

quote:

Like Bho said, this isn't U8 where the manager is infallible. That was Rafa's point.



I agree, I just think it isn't the players job to take action into their own hands. They should back the decisions of the front office, whether they agree with it or not, until the front office makes a change.






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BleedPurpleGold
LSU Fan
New Orleans
Member since Apr 2005
15245 posts

re: 8/29 Matchday Thread


quote:

Similarly, I would have hoped Gerrard/Carragher would have stepped up and said something to upper management during the Woy debacle. Keeping their mouth shut would have been a disservice to the club and fans IMO.



I would have hoped they did too. But behind closed doors and not openly in the locker room. There are professional ways of going about these things, that's all I'm saying.






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LSUSOBEAST1
LSU Fan
Member since Aug 2008
28426 posts

re: 8/29 Matchday Thread


See my above post. We'll have to agree to disagree with this one. I don't expect players to run the club, but I do think the veterans are well within their rights to object to management if need be. Terry and Co. have been through, what, 5 managers now? I think their opinion does hold a bit of weight, even if it may come across the wrong way.

Also, since we're on the topic, did any of them actually come out and criticize AVB publicly? Or are we just assuming they refused to play for him? Genuine question, I don't remember. If they did come out and say something, I am 100% against that. These types of things need to be kept in-house.

quote:

They should back the decisions of the front office, whether they agree with it or not, until the front office makes a change.


See, I just don't buy that. Different mindsets I guess.



This post was edited on 9/29 at 4:40 pm


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BleedPurpleGold
LSU Fan
New Orleans
Member since Apr 2005
15245 posts

re: 8/29 Matchday Thread


quote:

We'll have to agree to disagree with this one


Totally fine with this. As I've said its just my opinion, but I can see the other side of the argument, and am willing to admit I could very well be wrong about the situation.

quote:

did any of them actually come out and criticize AVB publicly?


That's what I read, but its hard to tell whats rumor and reality nowadays. If it was leaked that they did it, then I have no problem with the way they handled the situation. I was under the impression they said things publicly about the manager and publicly refused to play for him.

quote:


See, I just don't buy that. Different mindsets I guess.


No worries, I can see you and Bho's points. I may just be unrealistic and old fashioned. I'm willing to admit I'm a grandpa when it comes to these things.






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LSUSOBEAST1
LSU Fan
Member since Aug 2008
28426 posts

re: 8/29 Matchday Thread


quote:

I may just be unrealistic and old fashioned.


I usually am too about these things. I think we may be arguing slightly different points - particularly the club first thing. I'm pretty sure we're on the same page with that, I just don't think what they did is contrary to that idea (unless they came out publicly with their thoughts - which I don't know that they did or not).






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BleedPurpleGold
LSU Fan
New Orleans
Member since Apr 2005
15245 posts

re: 8/29 Matchday Thread


quote:

unless they came out publicly with their thoughts


Which is what my argument hinges on. If they did it within the confines of the club, and somebody on the inside leaked it publicly then I have no problem with it, and actually applaud them for standing up to the manager.

If they didn't do it publicly, well frick me then. I'm way off base if that was the case, and would disagree with my previous points myself.







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LSUSOBEAST1
LSU Fan
Member since Aug 2008
28426 posts

re: 8/29 Matchday Thread


Well maybe someone else can shed some light





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BleedPurpleGold
LSU Fan
New Orleans
Member since Apr 2005
15245 posts

re: 8/29 Matchday Thread


Bho?





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Vicks Kennel Club
USA Fan
LegenD Forever
Member since Dec 2010
19156 posts

re: 8/29 Matchday Thread


quote:

I totally understand that opinion. I'm just railing against the idea that it's obviously a manager's fault when his players refuse to listen to their superior, or simply can't adjust to new tactics.

No one said it was the manager's fault. We just said that the manager was not fit to be in charge of that specific club.

The reason that the manager gets fired even if it is the players are the frick-ups is simply between replacing a coach is lot easier than replacing 11 men.






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Bho
USA Fan
Lexington
Member since Dec 2007
23279 posts

re: 8/29 Matchday Thread


I don't believe that anyone went on the record publicly about disrespecting AVB, but lots of reports said he lost the locker room well before he was fired. A Chelsea beat writer I follow on twitter is very in touch with the club and although he won't bash AVB, he strongly hints to his refusal to adjust to the environment split the locker room. Another rumor was he heavily favored his Portuguese speaking players and would often speak in this language in training and they all would laugh at the others. John and Frank didn't appreciate that at all. From all accounts from inside and out, AVB was a shite show at Chelsea and gave Roman no choice but to sack him. I wouldn't be surprised if RDM had something to do with it as well. That's just my speculation though.





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LSUSOBEAST1
LSU Fan
Member since Aug 2008
28426 posts

re: 8/29 Matchday Thread


Exactly what I thought





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Bho
USA Fan
Lexington
Member since Dec 2007
23279 posts

re: 8/29 Matchday Thread


Yeah the Bobby Knight days of coaching are over. You have to get players to like you no matter the level or the sport now. Players like you, they play hard for you. Also as young as AVB is, he can't walk into John Terry's locker room and go all Hitler on them. Terry, Frank and Cole have all earned their respect on the field and would probably want their manager to do the same. I wish all players would blindly follow their managers but to think that they do, in this day and age, is very closed minded.





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Atom-Z
Columbia Fan
Member since Jun 2012
2307 posts

re: 8/29 Matchday Thread


So I am watching the Timbers game and DC's goalkeeper was holding the ball for longer than Franck Song'o liked so Song'o went up to DC's keeper and as the keeper dropped the ball to kick Song'o kicked the ball but the ref called a penalty and gave Song'o a yellow.

Was that the right call? I was a referee but I cant remember what the Rules of the game say about this.






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Gmorgan4982
LSU Fan
Member since May 2005
99049 posts

re: 8/29 Matchday Thread


Yeah, that's just not a smart move. The ref will likely always give a card for that. I remember in the USOC final when Montero headbutted the ball out of DC United's keeper's hand and was given a yellow card.

I don't know what the rules say either but I think that will probably get carded every time.



This post was edited on 9/30 at 12:00 am


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