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re: How can people with morals survive in an immoral world?
Posted on 7/25/14 at 11:26 pm to catholictigerfan
Posted on 7/25/14 at 11:26 pm to catholictigerfan
In total honesty regarding this topic. Given the very diverse viewpoints stated here this evening the posts have been very well stated by all with no animus. I for one appreciate that. It's sort of rare sometimes on here and I must admit to getting caught up in it at times.
Very interesting group of people.
Very interesting group of people.
0
Posted on 7/25/14 at 11:27 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
For every moral crime Americans might consider universal, I can name multiple societies throughout history (and often currently) in which that action was considered acceptable. .
See I think we have a slightly different understanding of a universal morality. You seem to think if there is a universal morality than it must always be followed at all times.
Is there one universal truth for science?
I would think you would say yes.
But wasn't there things that we hold as universal now that weren't universal in the past?
If you say that science is a universal truth than the logic of your argument fails.
There is one truth, but it isn't know in it's entirety. It is very possible that people have a warped view of the truth and this causes them to do things we would consider immoral today.
Hitler for example, he believed that Jews were not human, therefore he could kill them. We know this is wrong, but he believed that it was true so that affected his morality.
I could go all throughout history and explain why people saw something as moral that we see immoral today.
There is one truth and that truth should guide the way we live our lives.
Just because people didn't always follow that one truth doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
quote:
Moreover, if universal morality existed life could not. Lets consider if every animal, including humans, had always obeyed a universal morality. Nature proves morality isn't inherent.
Morality doesn't have to be inherent to be universal.
Posted on 7/25/14 at 11:28 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
Of course it doesn't, but the OP MUST account for this fact. He must explain why atheists have the lowest rate of incarceration (by far) of any major spiritual group in America. How can they avoid breaking the law to a much greater degree than everyone else without the fear of judgement? The OP says, on the whole, that cannot happen.
I agree
Posted on 7/25/14 at 11:29 pm to catholictigerfan
Rodger I really want to get into this universal morality discussion, but it's late and I need to back out. I'll come back tomorrow sometime.
Posted on 7/26/14 at 4:31 am to catholictigerfan
quote:
of any major spiritual group in America.
How can one categorize atheists as a spiritual group?
And;
quote:
There were always a lot of problems with that information: The percentages did not take into account prisoners whose religious affiliations were unknown or who did not respond at all. The data in question is more than 15 years old. Whatever it may have represented in the past, it’s practically irrelevant now. There’s no link to any official document with this data, only HTML code that has gone unverified for well over a decade. The websites talking about this data aren’t unbiased. They’re clearly atheist sites trying to make atheists look good. While numbers don’t lie, without the primary documents, it’s hard to evaluate how objective this information is. Golumbaski, the research analyst, no longer works at the Federal Bureau of Prisons… so we couldn’t even confirm that she did this research. The Holysmoke.org website this information appears on doesn’t exactly exude credibility. It has been said that the U.S. doesn’t even keep any data on the religious beliefs of inmates. Tom Flynn once wrote in Free Inquiry: “… no prison I know of has permitted researchers to catalogue inmates’ religious affiliations. No such data has been kept by any department of corrections — or if kept, no such data has been released.” Simply put, if a pastor offered this as evidence that Christians were all-but-absent in the U.S. prison system, we’d mock the hell out of them. We’d ask for better evidence. We wouldn’t let them get away with such flimsy data. So why, as skeptics, do we keep regurgitating this information? As far as we know, it’s just hearsay. That’s not to say it’s wrong, only that we really don’t have a good reason to believe it other than “this guy on the Internet said so.”
This post was edited on 7/26/14 at 4:55 am
Posted on 7/26/14 at 7:52 am to Roger Klarvin
quote:
He must explain why atheists have the lowest rate of incarceration (by far) of any major spiritual group in America. How can they avoid breaking the law to a much greater degree than everyone else without the fear of judgement?
Except eternal consequences aren't the only repercussions from breaking the law. Short-term consequences (getting caught and going to jail) are more immediate and apply to everyone.
Posted on 7/26/14 at 8:04 am to Revelator
quote:
How can there be any real dialogue or progress in this country when there is a group that believes in some moral standards( Ten Commandments), believes in an after life and a final judgment, where one has to give an account for his actions, and this group must deal with another group that not only doesn't mind lying to achieve its goals, but prides itself in it and believes they will never have to give any kind of account for the things they do here on earth? How can there ever be any real compromise or deal making when these two groups are so diametrically opposed?
"My Kingdom...is not of this World".
All the deals and compromising is about dividing up the power, money and ability to buy stuff and be free to do whatever...whenever. And all in a search for (Mick Jagger's)...satisfaction. If one's Religion is good and true, and if one aptly applies those Principles...then one finds that 'satisfaction'...in spite of money, power or even living amongst an "immoral world". And it will show, in that individual's eyes, words and actions. And that will be the best thing that one can do.
Posted on 7/26/14 at 8:11 am to Revelator
I missed that part when I agreed with his point 
This post was edited on 7/26/14 at 8:14 am
Posted on 7/26/14 at 9:01 am to Revelator
quote:
another group that not only doesn't mind lying to achieve its goals, but prides itself in it and believes they will never have to give any kind of account for the things they do here on earth?
the amount of brainwashing you have endured is mind-boggling...
Posted on 7/26/14 at 9:18 am to Revelator
quote:
How can people with morals survive in an immoral world?
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Posted on 7/26/14 at 11:55 am to Revelator
One group allows you, and expects you, to be a horrible sinner, capable of murdering, raping, stealing, etc. and still allowed to get into heaven with a simple repentance before death. This means that the most evil people that ever lived could be saved on their deathbed, while someone who simply grew up in the wrong place or time in history and was taught to believe something different than your religion would be doomed to an eternity of torture. This group is less concerned with their physical life here on earth, while the group that you think is morally repugnant is actually focused on how they live and treat other people in the here and now.
You could look at plenty of evidence of religious people behaving less moral than non-believers, but that isn't necessary. Instead just look at the tenets of what you actually believe.
Why are some of you so afraid of thoroughly examining your own minds and beliefs, and how and why you came to those beliefs? Is it a fear of what happens when you die? Or is it that the belief you have is so deeply ingrained that you are unable to separate it from who you are?
You could look at plenty of evidence of religious people behaving less moral than non-believers, but that isn't necessary. Instead just look at the tenets of what you actually believe.
Why are some of you so afraid of thoroughly examining your own minds and beliefs, and how and why you came to those beliefs? Is it a fear of what happens when you die? Or is it that the belief you have is so deeply ingrained that you are unable to separate it from who you are?
Posted on 7/26/14 at 12:05 pm to genuineLSUtiger
quote:
Gnostic Christianity and Buddhism parallel each other and both teach about the same kind of enlightenment.
How can one be a Gnostic and a Christian?
Posted on 7/26/14 at 1:23 pm to ForeLSU
quote:
the amount of brainwashing you have endured is mind-boggling...
So there aren't groups that operate under the credo," the ends justify the means?"
Posted on 7/26/14 at 1:26 pm to NoNameNeeded
quote:
How can one be a Gnostic and a Christian?
There are any number of ______Christians, fill in the blank. Does that mean that they all are?
Posted on 7/26/14 at 1:49 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
The vast majority of incarcerated Americans claim Christianity. So there's that.
No doubt, and the vast majority got real religious real quick once the reality of being incarcerated set in. Ask the prisoners how many of them were practicing Christians when they committed the crime that landed their AZZ in prison, I'm thinking very few.
Posted on 7/26/14 at 2:00 pm to JoeMoTiger
quote:
No doubt, and the vast majority got real religious real quick once the reality of being incarcerated set in. Ask the prisoners how many of them were practicing Christians when they committed the crime that landed their AZZ in prison, I'm thinking very few.
I've already explained this to him numerous times but it doesn't validate his point so he ignores it. All these criminals that claim to be Christian also all say they are innocent!
Posted on 7/26/14 at 2:41 pm to Revelator
All men sin. Even you. Many who sin regularly don't admit to it. Prisoners may truly believe in Christ. Who are you to insinuate and judge that they aren't really Christian?
Your life focus should be on the afterlife. Not this one. Do what you can to help your fellow man but don't be consumed with this world.
Also, you just wanted to complain and to get some attention. So congrats.
Your life focus should be on the afterlife. Not this one. Do what you can to help your fellow man but don't be consumed with this world.
Also, you just wanted to complain and to get some attention. So congrats.
Posted on 7/26/14 at 2:50 pm to Mickey Goldmill
quote:
Also, you just wanted to complain and to get some attention. So congrats.
I'm pretty sure it's a common practice to start threads on here. In fact, someone might start a few more before the day is over!
This post was edited on 7/26/14 at 2:51 pm
Posted on 7/26/14 at 2:56 pm to Revelator
quote:
I'm pretty sure it's a common practice to start threads on here. In fact, someone might start a few more before the day is over!
After everything I wrote that was directly related to your OP, THAT is what you reacted to? You're sad and pathetic.
Posted on 7/26/14 at 3:04 pm to Mickey Goldmill
quote:
After everything I wrote that was directly related to your OP, THAT is what you reacted to? You're sad and pathetic.
That's very Christian of you to say.
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