re: Just finished Lost. I am dissapoint. ****Spoilers****

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I won't completely disagree with you that the writers were trying to stay ahead of the audience curve at some points, but that's just because they were trying to keep us guessing and trying to make good, suspenseful television. s for why the ending didn't resonate with people, I think that has everything to do with how people viewed the show. For people like me, who accepted the show as having some faults and were more interested in the characters and the journey than "finding out answers to everything," I think the show resonated much better and more personal. For the opposites, who were so focused on "answers," they were destined to hate almost any ending that the creators went with. Also, I find that a lot of people in the latter category were already sort of tired of the show or disliking it at that point (after all, people looking for answers had to hate most of season 5/6) so them hating the finale was sort of self-serving at that point...they were gonna hate it regardless of what happened just to try to "be right."

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I see where you are coming from. I am one of the viewers that falls into the latter. Although, I did not get sick of the show at all. I was pumped after the third to last episode (story of Jacob and MiB). I thought.... Hell yes, let's tie it all together. Instead, we went back to Jack (not my favorite) and his arc.

I guess I was more interested in Lost as a mystery about an island and less interested about character progression with subpar acting.

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No worries...we haven't had a Lost argument in a while, so I guess we are due anyway.

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to that.

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I have to disagree with that, at least a little. People wanted answers to EVERYTHING...it's all some people bitched about. "I still want to know what the deal is with ______?" "Why is ______ on the show?" Etc.

As for the numbers...they served the narrative just fine for me. For you, they were different and I get that. But for me, I was never wrapped up in finding out why they existed or whatever...I was good knowing that they were significant to the island and (mainly) to Hurley. For me, they were all part of the "every one of the characters (including the island) is connected" angle of the show. You even clearly state yourself that "Yes it was answered." So you just don't like how they answered it. I, on the other hand, thought it was fine and it didn't bother me at all or take away from my enjoyment in the least bit.

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Let me rephrase, they certainly want answers and they voice their displeasure with "WHY ISN'T ____ answered?" but I don't think that's their driving motivation, I just think that's the only explicit way to state their criticism. When you make your show concretely "about a question," then that's how people are going to evaluate it as a question. It's also hard to break down narrative structure when all of the strands aren't matched (and this is not to say that questions aren't answered, but again that they serve their importance).

Right, but you don't find: "every one of the characters (including the island) is connected" just a convenient way to duck solid questions? (I mean, you stated it I know the answer). But for me that's what that seems. It allows the writers to build something up and toss it aside. Like the numbers. I guess the idea is that if you buy into their premises then you'll be satisfied, and that's probably driven by how much you enjoy the characters.

(By the way, I do enjoy that we can always talk about this and disagree without devolving into anything. That's always enjoyable, even if sometimes it's the same argument I usually find something new to think about. Such is Lost.)

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See, this is where we differ. IMO the numbers were pretty important. They were on everything. They were used in the hatch to keep the island at bay. They were used by Hurley to win the lottery. In other words, they were all connected to various happenings on and off the island and were part of the "everyone is connected" thing like I just mentioned.

But they were important, obviously. The difference is that you NEEDED a detailed explanation of the numbers (like why they existed, why they are what they are, etc) and I didn't. And on top of that, you needed that answer so bad that it negatively affected your viewing pleasure of the show...like you said, you were offended that the show used these "mystery points" and didn't answer them all to your satisfaction.

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See I didn't need an answer. I just needed them to not make the numbers important, because nothing of that makes the numbers important or powerful. Just listing the numbers on stuff and using them as codes does not incur importance. The numbers were not important outside of the equation and the candidates. That's it.

So I think to flip your assertion around, it's not that I needed an answer, it's that I didn't need them to ask that question. But, as I've said before, I like efficiency in writing, not unnecessary over-complication.

For instance, would you think your viewing experience would have been better or worse if the numbers were far less important? Would less important numbers take away from the story?

Or, even shorter: Were the numbers integral to the story and could the show function without them and not lose any meaning whatsoever?

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I think that has everything to do with how people viewed the show. For people like me, who accepted the show as having some faults and were more interested in the characters and the journey than "finding out answers to everything," I think the show resonated much better and more personal. For the opposites, who were so focused on "answers," they were destined to hate almost any ending that the creators went with. Also, I find that a lot of people in the latter category were already sort of tired of the show or disliking it at that point (after all, people looking for answers had to hate most of season 5/6) so them hating the finale was sort of self-serving at that point...they were gonna hate it regardless of what happened just to try to "be right."

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I've never actually said I disliked ending...because I don't. When I was able to let go of SOME of the questions, the show improved slightly. So I'm actually at peace with the ending itself, as in the last episode. I still both like and dislike how we got there though. All of my problems go back to:
1) Narrative
2) Character Motivations
3) Character Arcs
4) Writing in General

I don't think the ending is perfect, but it isn't bad if you isolate from the rest of the show's problem.

(And I offer this slight criticism on at least my take-there are people who are answer focused- that I'm less concerned with answers and more concerned with a complete narrative with significant depth and meaning. I think the meandering questions and answers the show explores get in the way of that significantly. The show would have been much better with less "big questions." If you don't think the questions were important enough to think deeply about, would you agree? What was the point of the questions, at least the unimportant ones, if they aren't important or don't mean anything?)

Also, there's an interesting dichotomy here. Think about the show's tagline:

"Where are we?"

Right?

Well,

Some people focus on the Where, some people focus on the We. I wonder if there are consistent personality traits, ideals, demographics that can split the two camps. At least before we all meet in the afterlife. Anyways, thought that was cool.

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This was probably my problem.

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Mysteries are just that, mysteries. There is absolutely no solution that would make everyone happy.

A somewhat spiritual ending, pisses off everyone who hates religion. See True Detective.

If it had been aliens, that would have pissed people off.



Since there was clearly stuff going beyond the laws of science, it wasn't possible to wrap things up neatly.

If everything occurred because of some alternate reality super advanced time traveling society, that would have pissed people off.

I loved every minute of the show from start to finish, including the Nikki & Paulo episode.

I have to mention the fantastic score or my fans will be disappointed.

Easily one of my top 5 shows and very rewatchable because of the stellar acting by Ben & Locke.

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If it had been aliens, that would have pissed people off.

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I always say I would have preferred the Walt hive-mind theory. I love that one.

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Since there was clearly stuff going beyond the laws of science, it wasn't possible to wrap things up neatly.

If everything occurred because of some alternate reality super advanced time traveling society, that would have pissed people off.

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I disagree. There were cool theories about Atlantis, the Titans/Old Gods, that i think could have been interesting.

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A somewhat spiritual ending, pisses off everyone who hates religion. See True Detective.

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The problem was the lack of real spirituality throughout UNTIL the ending that weakened it. I mean it was there, but none of the island stuff was really connected to it honestly. Only Jack's story had a spiritual attachment (father, son, all that good stuff). It had ghosts and such, and there were meditations on life and death, but the ending kind of came out of nowhere. (See, I would have preferred that kind of show.)

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Right, but you don't find: "every one of the characters (including the island) is connected" just a convenient way to duck solid questions?

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I'm only speaking for me, but no, not at all. IMO they don't duck questions. Sure, you're asking questions, but they aren't ducking them. Sometimes mysteries are just that: mysterious. Sometimes they don't need "answers." And that's how it was with the numbers and, to be honest, most of the mysteries on the show for me. I didn't need them to be answered, especially not directly. Sure, there were some that I would've liked answers to, but I never let that take away from the series for me, because I was more about the whole process/journey like I said.

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Like the numbers. I guess the idea is that if you buy into their premises then you'll be satisfied, and that's probably driven by how much you enjoy the characters.

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But even though I didn't buy into all of their premises, I still was able to enjoy the show fully and completely. For example, did I think it was weird that turning an old ship wheel affected the island and made the person end up in Tunisia? Of course. But I just took that at face value and didn't need to know why...I just know that the island is magical and that was good enough for me.

What you said about buying into the premises is true, and I think a lot of it boils down to this: If you buy into the "magic" aspect of the show, then you'll be fine with things. For example, for me...when I was wondering about something and the answer to it was "because the island is magical," I was cool with that. I didn't need some intricate explanation of the whys or the hows. I was content with what they gave.

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See I didn't need an answer. I just needed them to not make the numbers important, because nothing of that makes the numbers important or powerful. Just listing the numbers on stuff and using them as codes does not incur importance. The numbers were not important outside of the equation and the candidates. That's it.

So I think to flip your assertion around, it's not that I needed an answer, it's that I didn't need them to ask that question. But, as I've said before, I like efficiency in writing, not unnecessary over-complication.

For instance, would you think your viewing experience would have been better or worse if the numbers were far less important? Would less important numbers take away from the story?

Or, even shorter: Were the numbers integral to the story and could the show function without them and not lose any meaning whatsoever?

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But the numbers WERE important. They weren't necessarily tied to some specific instance that made them important, but the fact that they were on everything, that they were Hurley's winning lotto numbers, and the fact that they were programmed in to keep the island at bay within the hatch...those all let us know that they are important. You say they weren't important outside of the hatch and the candidates, but I say that is what specifically made them important as those were two of the main bases of the show.

To answer your specific questions: IMO the show wouldn't have been as cool to me without the numbers. And yes, not having them there would have taken away from the story. Just off the top of my head, it would've made the hatch storyline less interesting if it was other numbers, and it would've also made Hurley's backstory less interesting as well if his lotto numbers were just random and didn't match the ones on the island. So sure, the show could've "functioned" without them, but it was all the better because of them IMO.

IMO, our main difference in where we come down on Lost is right here:

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So I think to flip your assertion around, it's not that I needed an answer, it's that I didn't need them to ask that question. But, as I've said before, I like efficiency in writing, not unnecessary over-complication.

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The show wasn't asking many questions...you were. And the fact that you prefer efficient, concise writing leads you down a path to get annoyed with Lost because so many different things were going on the whole time, and not all of them ultimately mattered (in the long run).

I remember you saying that a lot during the final season, and I think that's mainly where we part ways on Lost. I was along for the ride and just falling in love with the characters and enjoying the whole journey, no matter how weird or outlandish it got...whereas you were hoping for more from the writers and hoping for better execution of certain things (be they answers or not).

IMO, if Lost would've been ~4 (maybe 5) seasons, we'd both love it as much as I currently do. And I think that goes for a lot of people that were ultimately dissatisfied with it. And this helps reiterate what I'm saying:

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(And I offer this slight criticism on at least my take-there are people who are answer focused- that I'm less concerned with answers and more concerned with a complete narrative with significant depth and meaning. I think the meandering questions and answers the show explores get in the way of that significantly. The show would have been much better with less "big questions." If you don't think the questions were important enough to think deeply about, would you agree? What was the point of the questions, at least the unimportant ones, if they aren't important or don't mean anything?)

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If the show was about a season and a half shorter, there would've likely been less "filler" stuff and it would've been more focused on the tasks at hand, which would have satisfied someone like you, who wants a deeper and more meaningful narrative and a fewer questions as to things the show offers as "important," and to me who is along for the journey.

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(By the way, I do enjoy that we can always talk about this and disagree without devolving into anything. That's always enjoyable, even if sometimes it's the same argument I usually find something new to think about. Such is Lost.)

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Of course. Not to mention it's a great time killer at work.

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The problem was the lack of real spirituality throughout UNTIL the ending that weakened it. I mean it was there, but none of the island stuff was really connected to it honestly. Only Jack's story had a spiritual attachment (father, son, all that good stuff). It had ghosts and such, and there were meditations on life and death, but the ending kind of came out of nowhere. (See, I would have preferred that kind of show.)

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I have to disagree with that. Lost had a LOT to do with religion/spirituality. shite, most of Locke's journey was spiritual. Same with Jack. Same with Sayid to a degree (balancing the atrocities of his past with the good deeds he did on the island and beyond...and back and forth with good/bad). Science versus faith. Lots of spirituality in the temple season. Etc.

I'd say that a large chunk of Lost dealt with spirituality, which made the ending resonate more for me with how they all were able to move on together.

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But even though I didn't buy into all of their premises, I still was able to enjoy the show fully and completely. For example, did I think it was weird that turning an old ship wheel affected the island and made the person end up in Tunisia? Of course. But I just took that at face value and didn't need to know why...I just know that the island is magical and that was good enough for me.

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You might find this funny (or frustrating, who knows?), but I actually had zero problem with turning the wheel to end up in Tunisia. None. Not once. It made sense at the time because we were still trying to figure out what the island was. But, when that information basically becomes irrelevant or unimportant THAT'S when the problem occurs. And this is why it's a mistake to say I want every answer. I don't Had the island been answered better than it was, or at least the Tunisia connection to be answered better, then needing to know why a personal turns the wheel to end up in Tunisia is irrelevant.

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For example, for me...when I was wondering about something and the answer to it was "because the island is magical," I was cool with that. I didn't need some intricate explanation of the whys or the hows. I was content with what they gave.

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See that's a incomplete without another qualifier. Just "being magical" wasn't enough. I didn't need a full answer, but I certainly needed more than just magic. I'll connect this to a point further down.

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To answer your specific questions: IMO the show wouldn't have been as cool to me without the numbers. And yes, not having them there would have taken away from the story. Just off the top of my head, it would've made the hatch storyline less interesting if it was other numbers, and it would've also made Hurley's backstory less interesting as well if his lotto numbers were just random and didn't match the ones on the island. So sure, the show could've "functioned" without them, but it was all the better because of them IMO.

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See, this is a point to agree to disagree, as we do. I just don't see it. I just see the numbers as completely superfluous and everything listed can be explained with either 1) No numbers 2) Or more important numbers that actually mean something. But these wishy-washy "well, they are sort of important, but they aren't really" is a problem in writing. I think it exists to give the writers an open channel to write one way or the other. To bend the narrative as they see fit rather than to devote themselves to a specific path.

To me, it screams of a tool to use to trick viewers rather than a tool or core motivation of the plot. As were many of the red herrings on the show.

But I will agree that without the numbers, or things like it, you wouldn't have had the interaction right? Without the numbers, I don't scour the internet looking for references and theories. That's why I value the experience of Lost. As a story it doesn't work, as an experience it does, but it still contains devices that were more for audience interaction than they were for storytelling.

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The show wasn't asking many questions...you were. And the fact that you prefer efficient, concise writing leads you down a path to get annoyed with Lost because so many different things were going on the whole time, and not all of them ultimately mattered (in the long run).

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I would agree except, and I do bring this up quite a bit, the show is asking you "Where are we?" the driving motivation through much of the first four seasons for the characters is to figure out where they are and what the island is because it's a weird place. I'm asking questions, because the characters are asking questions. When you call something a "mystery box," expect people to attempt to solve the mystery, which means asking questions. If you don't want people asking questions, then don't bait them into questions. Curious people, or people who like to solve puzzles (that's me), are going to take that bait.

This goes back to my previous point about whether or not this is worthwhile, and this is why my criticism of the show is complex because I enjoy the show, but it's hard for me to think it's actually a good show because, for me, the narrative lacks so much. Because, again to me, it seems many devices on the show exist for the sole purpose of either tricking the viewer or allowing an exit strategy for the writer. But few exist as dependent on the narrative and the goal of the story (see the numbers, which I think the show thematically can work perfectly fine without them or can work with a greater presence from them).

It isn't that I don't LIKE the answer to the numbers, that's not it if you're reading closely, I think the answer is fine... if the numbers were less important. OR if there were a bigger, more complex answer for bigger or more complex meaning of the numbers. But without either of those things happening it looks like the numbers were just a tool, a device to allow weird interplay, a device to trick viewers, and if they needed to at some point, to make something more important. We never got there, though. Would you have been surprised at the end of something else bigger happened with the numbers? Probably not.

And back to the point above, that's a perfectly fine answer if "just magic" was the question being asked. But the answers in Lost were never congruent with the narrative, which means that those subjects, at least in a direct narrative analysis, don't exist for the story, but for some other purpose (as "tools,"). That kind of cheapens it for me. (I hope that makes sense and hope at least it gets to the core of the "We just want answers," camp, because I really don't think that's what it is. I think that's selling that criticism just a tad short. I like mystery as much as the next person as long as it's purposeful.)

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If the show was about a season and a half shorter, there would've likely been less "filler" stuff and it would've been more focused on the tasks at hand, which would have satisfied someone like you, who wants a deeper and more meaningful narrative and a fewer questions as to things the show offers as "important," and to me who is along for the journey.

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I agree with this 100%.