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re: Safety in early rounds?
Posted on 4/6/14 at 3:25 pm to htran90
Posted on 4/6/14 at 3:25 pm to htran90
quote:
we are FINE, fine as in its okay, but there could be improvement..
There needs to be improvement. Period. You wanna be just "fine"? You want to be just "okay"? Enjoy that one championship.......
ETA- Go into the season with the WR core we have and be fine.
Now, imagine Jimmy Graham with Alshon Jeffrey and Josh Gordon type recievers out there. Yeah, that's right. Dy-fricking-namic son.
This post was edited on 4/6/14 at 3:37 pm
2
Posted on 4/6/14 at 3:41 pm to whodatfan
I think it would be more than a safe bet to go for the Saints taking an early round wr....I'll personally be surprised if they wait as late as the 3rd.
Posted on 4/6/14 at 3:44 pm to whodatfan
Neither htran nor I said we shouldn't upgrade. You guys are making a false argument.
And that's my issue here. It's one extreme or the other with most people when the truth is usually in the middle.
Our WRs aren't on either extreme. We aren't any where close to as bad as Carolina, but we aren't as good as the Bear's or Colt's top 2. We're in the middle.
So yes of course we could be better and everyone here agrees onthat. Not one person said we should stand pat. But we at least have options on the team already.
And that's my issue here. It's one extreme or the other with most people when the truth is usually in the middle.
Our WRs aren't on either extreme. We aren't any where close to as bad as Carolina, but we aren't as good as the Bear's or Colt's top 2. We're in the middle.
So yes of course we could be better and everyone here agrees onthat. Not one person said we should stand pat. But we at least have options on the team already.
Posted on 4/6/14 at 3:52 pm to bonethug0108
Im not arguing with you. Im just stating my opinion on the topic. We CANNOT stand pat with this core. Jimmy needs relief and the heap of receptions cant be won by RB/TE. We need dynamic output at the WR position. It will be a repeat of last season with a sluggish road offense if we run the same predictable offense with Jimmy as the main cog with a sprinkle of RB receptions and avg to low WR output.
Posted on 4/6/14 at 3:55 pm to whodatfan
someone gets it 
can't have RBs & TEs catching 230 balls in a year
can't have RBs & TEs catching 230 balls in a year
This post was edited on 4/6/14 at 3:59 pm
Posted on 4/6/14 at 4:04 pm to whodatfan
quote:
Im not arguing with you. Im just stating my opinion on the topic. We CANNOT stand pat with this core. Jimmy needs relief and the heap of receptions cant be won by RB/TE. We need dynamic output at the WR position. It will be a repeat of last season with a sluggish road offense if we run the same predictable offense with Jimmy as the main cog with a sprinkle of RB receptions and avg to low WR output.
Preach! Everyone sees that you have WR as priority Bone & you mention the team could stand to get better at that position but I strongly disagree that will be ok with staying put & going into the season with what currently have. We would see the same issues we saw on the road this past season & possibly it could be even worse. It definitely wouldn't be better. If this team was only satisfied with being a wild card & making the playoffs then yes, they would be fine in that aspect. This team has Super Bowl aspirations & in order to reach that goal, there has to be upgrades at receiver.
Posted on 4/6/14 at 4:17 pm to BigBrod81
quote:
I strongly disagree that will be ok with staying put & going into the season with what currently have.
That's pretty much the way I see it too. Colston has got a quite a few chronic injury concerns and is getting up there in age, Moore is gone (although that could be addition by subtraction), who knows what they'll get out of Morgan or for that matter Toon. The only wr they have that I'd bet on being an ascending player is Stills. And it's not like the wr's were a strongpoint of the passing game last year....the strongpoint was rb's and Graham.
But then again we still have Tanner.
Posted on 4/6/14 at 4:21 pm to monroesaintsfan
quote:
But then again we still have Tanner.
I have no desire to see Tanner against strong press coverage defenses which the offense will see especially inside the division.
Posted on 4/6/14 at 4:26 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
n the end, why would anyone want to have a passing game like last year? You act like that would have us in good shape.
Having the second most passing yards in the league, finishing 4th in net yards per attempt, second in passing touchdowns really sucks, man.
Now, if you want to talk about how the receptions and yardage was distributed, then we can talk and probably agree on a lot of points.
But to say that our passing game (which finished third in DVOA as well) wasn't in good shape last year is, at best, dishonest.
Posted on 4/6/14 at 4:31 pm to Sophandros
quote:
Having the second most passing yards in the league, finishing 4th in net yards per attempt, second in passing touchdowns really sucks, man.
Sometimes numbers can be deceiving & not tell the whole story. As long as Brees is able, the offense will put up passing numbers. The problems on the road were real & not something most of us imagined. The offense was awful at times on the road especially in the redzone & on 3rd down. Those are the areas where the lack of talent at receiver stood out the most.
Posted on 4/6/14 at 4:36 pm to Hoodoo Man
quote:
We're gonna draft a receiver.
It's just a matter of which round.
Now, look at the CBSsport mock drafts:
LINK
Pat Kirwin has us drafting Kelvin Benjamin at 27 (he has Cooks going to the Eagles at 22 and OBJ at 26 to Cleveland).
What's the board's opinion on that? I think I would be OK with Benjamin there. We can get a good safety (the original topic of this thread...) in rounds 2 or 3, or maybe getting a guy like Attaochu in the second round to play OLB.
Posted on 4/6/14 at 4:38 pm to Sophandros
I'm not super into getting a receiver in the first, but I wouldn't be opposed to it.
I'd rather get a linebacker.
But it'll be value-based regardless.
I'd rather get a linebacker.
But it'll be value-based regardless.
Posted on 4/6/14 at 4:46 pm to Sophandros
quote:
What's the board's opinion on that?
I'm cool with it. Benjamin is a big bodied receiver who will immediately impact the offensively in the redzone & against press coverage. He would also bring the aspect being able to win downfield by being able to use his height & leaping ability to high point passes which is something the current receiving corp is lacking. He could force teams to have to double or bracket him, depending on how effective he becomes in the offense which in return would open up areas of the field for other receivers. He also played in a system at Florida State that spread the ball around just as much as the Saints do. So that means he understands the importance of running his routes full go even when the ball isn't coming in his direction.
This post was edited on 4/6/14 at 4:49 pm
Posted on 4/6/14 at 4:47 pm to BigBrod81
Honestly, I think that our issues on the road were due to a number of factors, and WR was perhaps third in the top three.
Playcalling was #1.
Line play, particularly when Brown was in was #2.
WR separation was an issue, but playing at home or on the road has no bearing on whether a WR can get separation.
Something that no one has mentioned in this WR discussion is the potential evolution in our offense to more balanced attack rather than relying too heavily on the passing game. That doesn't eliminate the need to upgrade the position, and no one, not bonethug, not me, NO ONE has has said that it doesn't need to be upgraded.
What we are saying is that, while it's a position of need, it's not as high on the list as Center, Linebacker, or Corner. And maybe Safety.
But we're in a good position where we can draft BPA among those positions. At #27 we're probably going to take the highest rated WR, CB, or LB on our board. If we take a LB or CB, that doesn't mean that we're not seeing the WR position as "good". It just means that the player in that other position of need was rated higher.
And yes, I understand that I'll probably have to repeat that last paragraph on draft day.
Playcalling was #1.
Line play, particularly when Brown was in was #2.
WR separation was an issue, but playing at home or on the road has no bearing on whether a WR can get separation.
Something that no one has mentioned in this WR discussion is the potential evolution in our offense to more balanced attack rather than relying too heavily on the passing game. That doesn't eliminate the need to upgrade the position, and no one, not bonethug, not me, NO ONE has has said that it doesn't need to be upgraded.
What we are saying is that, while it's a position of need, it's not as high on the list as Center, Linebacker, or Corner. And maybe Safety.
But we're in a good position where we can draft BPA among those positions. At #27 we're probably going to take the highest rated WR, CB, or LB on our board. If we take a LB or CB, that doesn't mean that we're not seeing the WR position as "good". It just means that the player in that other position of need was rated higher.
And yes, I understand that I'll probably have to repeat that last paragraph on draft day.
Posted on 4/6/14 at 4:48 pm to Hoodoo Man
quote:
But it'll be value-based regardless.
Posted on 4/6/14 at 4:51 pm to Hoodoo Man
Only positions I'd rule out in the first are K, P, and FB. Of course QB, TE, HB, OT, DE, C, G, and S would be lower in the first than LB, WR, and CB to varying degrees.
Then in the second C, G, and DE would probably start to gain (not quite)equal footing.
After the second everything else really comes into play minus K, P, and FB.
Then in the second C, G, and DE would probably start to gain (not quite)equal footing.
After the second everything else really comes into play minus K, P, and FB.
Posted on 4/6/14 at 5:04 pm to Sophandros
quote:
Something that no one has mentioned in this WR discussion is the potential evolution in our offense to more balanced attack rather than relying too heavily on the passing game.
I've seen several of our fans say this & I think it's baloney. A tiger doesn't suddenly change its stripes & you don't pay an elite QB nearly 20 mil a season to become a game manager.
Payton has never been conservative. I'm not sure he even knows how to call 2 straight conservative games much less a conservative 16 game season.
Too many people are getting caught up in the run heavy playoff games & thinking that is the direction the offense is moving in. I saw it as a great coach, taking the team he had at that moment & playing a style that gave that particular squad it's best chance to win with what they had.
I see the cleansing this offseason on the offensive side, as Payton realizing they had to get younger & more dynamic very quickly. Even with the offensive line struggles, the skill position players looked slow & soft especially in road games. I think Payton realized that if his offense was going to be an unstoppable force once again then he needed to add talent.
Payton just doesn't like to win, he likes to dominate. He won't accomplish that running a ground & pound offense. I do think he wants the running game back to '09 & '11 production because in return it makes the passing game that much more potent.
The offense can still run the ball 30 times & Brees could still throw it 40 times. I believe in '11 the offense averaged around 70 offensive plays per game. With those numbers you still get the rushing attempts you want but at the same time you aren't losing your aggressiveness through the air.
This post was edited on 4/6/14 at 5:09 pm
Posted on 4/6/14 at 5:18 pm to Sophandros
quote:
But to say that our passing game (which finished third in DVOA as well) wasn't in good shape last year is, at best, dishonest.
Again, 50% of our production came from TE & RB.
Our WRs weren't very good. That's what I'm talking about.
Posted on 4/6/14 at 5:22 pm to Lester Earl
Or it could be because we have one of, if not the best, pass catching TEs ever, along with two of the best pass catching HBs ever.
You are creating a false scenario to suit your argument.
You are creating a false scenario to suit your argument.
Posted on 4/6/14 at 5:24 pm to BigBrod81
quote:
I've seen several of our fans say this & I think it's baloney. A tiger doesn't suddenly change its stripes & you don't pay an elite QB nearly 20 mil a season to become a game manager.
Payton has never been conservative. I'm not sure he even knows how to call 2 straight conservative games much less a conservative 16 game season.
No one has made those arguments.
We have said that the Saints would be more balanced, and we have evidence of our offense being more balanced in the past.
quote:
Payton just doesn't like to win, he likes to dominate. He won't accomplish that running a ground & pound offense. I do think he wants the running game back to '09 & '11 production because in return it makes the passing game that much more potent.
Those of us who are looking at the evolution of the offense are talking about our '09 and '11 seasons. Let's look at some numbers.
2009: LINK
#8 in second level yards (which means that you're opening holes), #7 in power success, #2 in Adjusted Line Yards up the middle, #7 and #4 behind left and right tackle, respectively.
#1 run DVOA.
2011:
LINK
#1 in second level yards, #11 in power, #1 up the middle, #2 behind left tackle, and in the top ten around both ends.
#2 Run DVOA.
How did we do that? We were nasty up front and had two guys who could run it up the middle. We need to get that nastiness back with our center, but we have the other elements right now.
I also think that part of our problems last year was that we have two guys in Thomas and Sproles who are great pass catchers out of the backfield and Payton kind of fell in love with those plays.
As I said before, a big problem was playcalling. We need to have more balance.
Balance =/= conservative. Balance is also about distributing the ball more evenly in the passing game, but that's another thread.
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