Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass? - Page 5 - TigerDroppings.com

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SlowFlowPro
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re: Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?


quote:

There are different kinds of caring.

not in this instance. the people i'm discussing hold absolute views on a limited issue. it's black or white, not grey

quote:

many people--including myself--think that religious language and notions of the sacred, etc. go hand-in-hand with political community as such.

so logically it should be considered very immoral to lie about this

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In other words, they can't be distinguished from the end--which in this case would be patriotism or something.

if he doesn't believe in god, but claims to, then you're wrong. belief in god has nothing to do with the end (policy). he lies about a completely unrelated topic as the means to that end

quote:

you are a lawyer--are you scandalized when lawyers aren't 100% truthful?

lying to other counsel or a court can get us sanctioned/suspended. we have rules about this

if we lie to a judge, there are severe consequences, both ethically and in terms of practice






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Interception
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re: Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?


quote:

Well, I think it's related question. Joe Biden claims to be a Catholic, but is pro-choice, etc. Do you think he's "lying" about his Catholicism?


No, and Biden doesn't hide his beliefs, it's different than Obama in my view. Also, 50% of the Catholics are pro choice. I believe Joe Biden very much fits in with mainstream Catholics in the northeast.






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Bunsbert Montcroff
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re: Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?


quote:

All politicians who want to win? are Christians? Keith Ellison
Leiberman
Debbie Wassherman
Schumer
Steve Cohen
and on and on
Eric Cantor
Jay Dardenne

and on

the us representative just to the east of my district is a bisexual atheist. so add her to the list






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thetempleowl
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re: Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?


I don't care whether one claims to be a moderate. Those crazy religious people yeah, I make fun of.

So, I don't mock Obama about is professed christianity at all.

However, I happen to believe that Obama is likely as christian as I am. And I haven't been to church in quite some time. Yet I still consider myself christian.

In all, I really don't give a heck what you believe in as long as it doesn't fly in the face of science. That means you anti evolution people or the crazies who thought that women could control getting pregnant.






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Bayou Sam
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re: Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?


quote:

the people i'm discussing hold absolute views on a limited issue. it's black or white, not grey


I don't know what this means and it doesn't address my point.

quote:

so logically it should be considered very immoral to lie about this



No, that does not follow from this: "religious language and notions of the sacred, etc. go hand-in-hand with political community"

quote:

if he doesn't believe in god, but claims to, then you're wrong. belief in god has nothing to do with the end (policy). he lies about a completely unrelated topic as the means to that end


No. I accept a couple of premises here that may clear things up. First, American civil religion entertains a vague notion of God--God bless America, American providentialism, etc--that isn't necessarily beholden to any particular religious confession but is generally related to Christianity. Second, American civil religion is not a means to the end of some particular policy.

Third, rhetoric or the manner of persuasion in general is not necessarily a means to an end of some particular policy. So for instance, it's not clear to me that principles of Christian charity are means to the end of policies like medicare or Obama's ACA. We appeal to those principles because they persuade people to adopt these policies, but we also desire these policies precisely because we hold these principles.

Fourth, it isn't clear to me that, based on what Obama has said about religion, that we can call him a "liar", or that we can say that he uses religion as a means to an end. He could just have a different interpretation of religion that aligns it with American civil religion in general.

So to take the example of Romney again. Romney is a mormon, and generally we could argue that "orthodox" Mormonism does not believe in the separation of church and state. But Romney expressly keeps his confessional beliefs outside of policy, and generally only brings religion into policy in the most general, civil religion sense. Does this mean he's a liar? What if he really believes that the best government would be a kind of theocracy a la Brigham Young? Would that make him a liar? Or if he doesn't believe that, does that mean he's lying about being a Mormon?

I don't think so. Now, if Romney, upon being elected president, suddenly announced that he was going to govern according to the principles outlined in the Book of Mormon, or by the example of Brigham Young, I would say that he had been lying in the bad sense while he was campaigning. But it seems to me that Romney probably had his own way of reconciling his public statements with his inner-most religious beliefs. I don't think for the purposes of politics we should care or demand to know exactly the ins and outs of his own reasoning on this subject.

quote:

lying to other counsel or a court can get us sanctioned/suspended. we have rules about this

if we lie to a judge, there are severe consequences, both ethically and in terms of practice


Of course, but is there not quite a bit of gray area as to what constitutes lying? I.e., isn't there a difference between what would count as a lie in the eyes of the law vs what we call lies in everyday life? And what about "lying" in business transactions? Seems to me there's an analogous sort of slippage.






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Bayou Sam
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re: Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?


In a related note, it seems to me that the religious fakery is more obvious on the right, where you really need to seem like a true believer to get elected. I mean, does anyone really believe that Newt Gingrich is really a Catholic?

This whole thing reminds me of C S Lewis' "liar, Lord, or lunatic" argument.






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Bayou Sam
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re: Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?


quote:

However, I happen to believe that Obama is likely as christian as I am. And I haven't been to church in quite some time. Yet I still consider myself christian.

In all, I really don't give a heck what you believe in as long as it doesn't fly in the face of science. That means you anti evolution people or the crazies who thought that women could control getting pregnant.


Yes, pretty much this. I would also add "as long as you don't persecute other religions" and "as long as you don't adopt policies in general on narrowly confessional lines, or because God told you so, etc.".






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BeeFense5
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re: Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?


quote:

or the crazies who thought that women could control getting pregnant.


Women can't control themselves getting pregnant? Lolwut






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SlowFlowPro
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re: Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?


quote:

I don't know what this means and it doesn't address my point.

you are attempting to create a gradient of belief in this discussion to avoid taking a side

if you are a person who says those that believe in god are stupid, and you support Obama, then you are either a hypocrite or you believe he's lying. there is no gradient of christianity that would avoid these 2 options, and that argument is a strawman that avoids discussing my actual question

quote:

religious language and notions of the sacred, etc. go hand-in-hand with political community

it's teh same as policy

if you lie about policy to get elected, you're being immoral.

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Second, American civil religion is not a means to the end of some particular policy.

it's the means to gain support to enact the policies

if it weren't, then we'd see more politicians being honest and admitting their atheism

it's not jsut a DEM issue, but those on the right are MUCH less likely to call a christian stupid by default

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Does this mean he's a liar?

is he a practicing Mormon who believes in Mormon orthodoxy? by almost every account that answer is yes, so no, he's not lying

if Romney believes in a theocracy and was acting as a moderate Mormon to gain election, then he's lying

quote:

He could just have a different interpretation of religion that aligns it with American civil religion in general.

again, you're trying to create a "grey" when that avoids the question i'm asking

this gradient is irrelevant to the Rex's of the world. it's a binary analysis. 1 or 0. religious or not. the very smallest minute belief means you're an idiot in their eyes.

quote:

but is there not quite a bit of gray area as to what constitutes lying?

misleading the court, even by our interpretation of caselaw, can lead to sanctions. sure there is grey area, but it's a very broad definition

it's not the same with belief. you can change your belief, but at that moment you do or don't believe in god







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Bayou Sam
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re: Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?


If you really just want to limit the issue to that, then the line of reasoning is as follows:

Rex thinks religion is stupid.

Why doesn't Rex then think Obama is stupid?

Therefore: Either Rex is making a ridiculous exception to just Obama, or Rex thinks that Obama is a liar. In that case Rex is immoral.

Well, maybe it's possible that Rex isn't totally consistent or clear on what he means when he says religious is stupid. For instance, maybe he is thinking of certain types of Christians, and he is simply speaking too broadly. Or maybe he thinks that one particular belief is stupid, but he doesn't think that someone has to be stupid in general to hold a stupid belief. Or maybe he doesn't really know what he thinks. In all these cases, it isn't obvious that Rex is a "hypocrite".

Just to take myself for an example, there are times when I think about the central doctrines of Christianity, and it seems to me breathtakingly stupid or even childish that anyone believes these things. But at the same time I recognize that the central doctrines of Christianity can't be isolated form the intellectual traditions and inherited institutions they are delivered through to individual believers. And when I consider it on that level, it doesn't seem so irrational at all.

Moreover, even when I think that Christianity is simply stupid, I am very far from ignorant of all the very intelligent and learned Christians of the past and also in the present. I don't think I am being hypocritical when I say that x doctrine of Christianity or Catholicism or Mormonism is stupid and yet I don't think that y believer of x doctrine is stupid.







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thetempleowl
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re: Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?


quote:

if you lie about policy to get elected, you're being immoral.


Thus the belief on this board that just about every politician above a certain level is immoral.

Because most believe politicians do this on a daily level.






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SlowFlowPro
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re: Why do Anti-religious Progressives give Obama a pass?


quote:

just about every politician above a certain level is immoral.

i believe that

hell, the personality type that would make a person want to run for federal office is not a good one

these are all ego maniac elitists who are all image over anything else






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