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Message
re: Tevin Lawson to accept greyshirt?
Posted on 2/21/13 at 9:11 am to Lsupimp
Posted on 2/21/13 at 9:11 am to Lsupimp
quote:
Bottom line-an 18 year old kid had his CHOICE of swallowing his pride, paying a semester and then joining the LSU team of his dreams or going to a great TCU program on a full ride from DAY ONE.
Several people have posted on this topic and included the statement "the team of his dreams", or something similar. I know it's shocking to all of us, people who grew up loving college football, and for many on this board, loving LSU football, but many of these kids just aren't exposed to those things in their upbringing. I'm not saying the young man grew up an Alabama fan, or a Florida St fan, I'm saying that for a lot of these kids, they don't have much exposure to football other than their own junior high and high school teams.
1
Posted on 2/21/13 at 10:01 am to Indiana Tiger
quote:
Indiana Tiger
I looked back through a little of the post history and found the quote/article I mentioned previously. In my opinion he clearly differentiates between the two limits, but the writer inferred something different. The quote is copied below and I've added bold to what I believe are the key points. The writer should have phrased the question in official terms to get a more clear answer.
quote:
“If a player signs, he counts without regard to whether or not he actually enrolls,” SEC spokesman Charles Bloom said in an e-mail Monday. “ ‘Back counting’ is only permitted for mid-year enrollees who are able to be included as an initial counter for the academic year in which they enroll . ‘Back counting’ is an artificial term for this discussion and not accurate as the question is about the signing limit.”
It seems to me Bloom is acknowledging two separate limits as he specifically uses the different terms and even points out that backcounting doesn't necessarily belong in the discussion about the signing limit.
I saw you mention in one of the posts that LSU could just be being cautious, and I agree. I just don't think that automatically means their interpretation is correct.
We should get a better idea when we see how many are taken in 2014 now that we know how the numbers should work with each interpretation.
Posted on 2/21/13 at 10:09 am to Indiana Tiger
Below is from a post I made about a week and a half ago:
I'm nearly certain that we could only sign 27 because we could only backcount 2 because the SEC treats LOIs like initial counters for these purposes. So the answer is 25, including Lawson if he accepts the greyshirt, and as pointed out that would take quite a bit of attrition.
My only reservation, and it's extremely small, with backcounting 2 is that I can read the rules like the rest of you and 4 seems like it should be allowed. But the SEC can implement this rule as it chooses as long as it is more restrictive, and the evidence strongly supports that they have restricted it.
First, this is from an article published in Jan 2012 ( SEC Clarifies Rules on Back Counting Recruits):
When I saw this for the first time, I didn't think he really answered the question because of his little diatribe on back-counting. Now, with all the other evidence, I believe he did answer the question with the first sentence. The other evidence I speak of includes:
o Reports that Ponamsky and Shea have said we only back counted 2,
o we signed exactly 27
o Miles saying we were thru
o Lawson (we could sign him now with no penalty if 4 were true)
o Rumors of a grey shirt offer to Willis, which is the only thing we could offer after signing day if 2 were true.
And I'll add that I haven't seen, although I haven't really looked, any other SEC team deviating from this either.
I'm nearly certain that we could only sign 27 because we could only backcount 2 because the SEC treats LOIs like initial counters for these purposes. So the answer is 25, including Lawson if he accepts the greyshirt, and as pointed out that would take quite a bit of attrition.
My only reservation, and it's extremely small, with backcounting 2 is that I can read the rules like the rest of you and 4 seems like it should be allowed. But the SEC can implement this rule as it chooses as long as it is more restrictive, and the evidence strongly supports that they have restricted it.
First, this is from an article published in Jan 2012 ( SEC Clarifies Rules on Back Counting Recruits):
quote:
“If a player signs, he counts without regard to whether or not he actually enrolls,” SEC spokesman Charles Bloom said in an e-mail Monday. “ ‘Back counting’ is only permitted for mid-year enrollees who are able to be included as an initial counter for the academic year in which they enroll. ‘Back counting’ is an artificial term for this discussion and not accurate as the question is about the signing limit.”
When I saw this for the first time, I didn't think he really answered the question because of his little diatribe on back-counting. Now, with all the other evidence, I believe he did answer the question with the first sentence. The other evidence I speak of includes:
o Reports that Ponamsky and Shea have said we only back counted 2,
o we signed exactly 27
o Miles saying we were thru
o Lawson (we could sign him now with no penalty if 4 were true)
o Rumors of a grey shirt offer to Willis, which is the only thing we could offer after signing day if 2 were true.
And I'll add that I haven't seen, although I haven't really looked, any other SEC team deviating from this either.
Posted on 2/21/13 at 10:32 am to MOT
I was looking up the post while you were posting this. At the time I agreed with your interpretation of the Bloom comment. Right now I'm convinced that his little diatribe just confused things and the first sentence and the author's interpretation is on point. I also agree we won't know more until 2014, but I haven't seen anything in practice that contradicts my stance now.
Posted on 2/21/13 at 10:35 am to Choupique19
quote:
I'm saying the "grade issue" is a cop out. Miles dumped Lawson to sign somebody else.
So Miles dumped Lawson for Riley because he couldn't pass on Riley...a kid he slow played and offered at the last minute?
Posted on 2/21/13 at 10:44 am to MOT
quote:
I saw you mention in one of the posts that LSU could just be being cautious, and I agree. I just don't think that automatically means their interpretation is correct.
If your interpretation is correct, there was no need to be cautious by the end of signing day, since an EE in 2014 could reuse his spot. Therefore you have to believe that LSU was encouraging him to look elsewhere. What's true? I don't know, but being cautious because signing him would be costly if he failed to qualify makes more sense to me.
The problem that I have is that I can't find anything even remotely analogous to this example that would support your position, but I've found several others that support mine. We'll see what happens in 2014.
Posted on 2/21/13 at 10:55 am to Indiana Tiger
quote:
with backcounting 2 is that I can read the rules like the rest of you and 4 seems like it should be allowed.
If I'm not mistaken, backcounting is also subject to the 85 limit as well as the initial counter limit. I don't know the exact numbers, but this could be why 2 was the limit.
Posted on 2/21/13 at 11:05 am to ForeLSU
quote:
If I'm not mistaken, backcounting is also subject to the 85 limit as well as the initial counter limit. I don't know the exact numbers, but this could be why 2 was the limit.
Yes that is true and while I don't think it was the limiting factor, it could be. The same is true for all the other evidence that I refer to and that's why it's not definitive, but there is a lot of it that supports the position. It could just be a coincidence, but I really doubt it.
Posted on 2/21/13 at 11:05 am to Indiana Tiger
I agree that it wasn't necessary to ask him to greyshirt under my interpretation. But what sounds better...LSU couldn't take him because of room and he was a grade risk, or LSU thought he was a marginal player and decided to let him go at the last minute after they were comfortable with other DL players in the class?
Back to Bloom's comments, based on the later comments I think he is referring to the signing limit in the first line.
One thing is for sure it isn't as simple as asking one of these officials "how does this work?". Who ever is conducting the interview needs to have some understanding in order to know what kind of questions should be asked.
LSU Compliance has an active twitter account, maybe we can ask them.
Back to Bloom's comments, based on the later comments I think he is referring to the signing limit in the first line.
One thing is for sure it isn't as simple as asking one of these officials "how does this work?". Who ever is conducting the interview needs to have some understanding in order to know what kind of questions should be asked.
LSU Compliance has an active twitter account, maybe we can ask them.
Posted on 2/21/13 at 11:11 am to Indiana Tiger
All 8 of the EEs had to fit in the current 85, so I don't think that was a factor in the back counted number.
The way to describe how that would be related is....in order to count anyone back they have to be an EE. In order to be an EE you have to have room for them in the current year's 85.
And then from there in order to count them back you would look back to the number of initial counters per the NCAA, and whatever else the SEC/LSU may interpret (back to the current discussion).
The way to describe how that would be related is....in order to count anyone back they have to be an EE. In order to be an EE you have to have room for them in the current year's 85.
And then from there in order to count them back you would look back to the number of initial counters per the NCAA, and whatever else the SEC/LSU may interpret (back to the current discussion).
Posted on 2/21/13 at 11:18 am to Indiana Tiger
quote:
The problem that I have is that I can't find anything even remotely analogous to this example that would support your position, but I've found several others that support mine. We'll see what happens in 2014.
I'm kind of looking at it the opposite way. The NCAA manual supports my position, I think you agree with that, and the SEC doesn't have anything in writing that contradicts my position.
As for the examples, how do we know for sure all teams sign the maximum annual number? If LSU only signs 12 players next year and they say its all they had room for, would they be correct?
Posted on 2/21/13 at 11:25 am to MOT
FWIW I havent read through all of the messages on the last 2 pages because the posts were long but he signed with TCU last night. Sorry if germans.
Posted on 2/21/13 at 11:27 am to MOT
quote:
what sounds better...LSU couldn't take him because of room and he was a grade risk, or LSU thought he was a marginal player and decided to let him go at the last minute after they were comfortable with other DL players in the class?
So you believe LSU was encouraging him to leave. That's an okay position. My point is that if you believe he was wanted, then there was a better sounding story to tell under your scenario. E.g. we want to sign a full class, but we don't know for sure if we will and your grades are a risk to that. If we do, we want you to greyshirt; if we don't, we will know by signing day and you can sign then.
WRT Bloom, I originally agreed with your interpretation, but I don't anymore. I do agree that reporters don't always know enough about the subject to get a thorough answer.
Posted on 2/21/13 at 11:37 am to Indiana Tiger
One of these recruiting sites should contract us out and set up an interview with an NCAA and SEC rep. I believe we could get to the bottom of it. 
Posted on 2/21/13 at 11:43 am to MOT
quote:
As for the examples, how do we know for sure all teams sign the maximum annual number? If LSU only signs 12 players next year and they say its all they had room for, would they be correct?
There are 14 teams in the SEC. While certainly not a certainty, you would think the odds favor at least one team would have had a nonqualifier last year that they replaced with an EE. I know A&M didn't. I didn't really check the others because there is a limit to what I'm willing to do once I've convinced myself and while not absolutely certain, I'm convinced enough.
The application of rules should be evident in practice and I see no evidence of your position but I've seen a lot for mine. While one year may not be enough for you, it's enough for me until I actually see something that contadicts it.
Posted on 2/21/13 at 12:36 pm to Indiana Tiger
I'm a fan of both purple teams so this is a win/win. Both schools put an excellent defense on the field and he'll have more than enough opportunity to continue to the next level if he does what he needs to do.
As far as waiting a semester then signing... If the kid has ever been an academic risk - I think taking a semester off is a bad idea. Have to stay in the rhythm of being in school.
TCU is a top notch university and well-regarded for its graduation rates. God forbid anything happen injury-wise and he'll still have a lot of opportunities ahead of him.
Also a bunch of kids from Louisiana already Frogs will help him transition to life across the border.
As far as waiting a semester then signing... If the kid has ever been an academic risk - I think taking a semester off is a bad idea. Have to stay in the rhythm of being in school.
TCU is a top notch university and well-regarded for its graduation rates. God forbid anything happen injury-wise and he'll still have a lot of opportunities ahead of him.
Also a bunch of kids from Louisiana already Frogs will help him transition to life across the border.
Posted on 2/21/13 at 12:44 pm to LSUDbrous90
TCU it is
Posted on 2/21/13 at 12:49 pm to Indiana Tiger
quote:
There are 14 teams in the SEC. While certainly not a certainty, you would think the odds favor at least one team would have had a nonqualifier last year that they replaced with an EE. I know A&M didn't.
two points of reference.
Edmund Ray did not qualify last year. We back counted EEs as far back as we could to maximize spots but we still didn't use Ray's spot.
This year, we left 2 empty spots towards the 25. We still didn't let Derek Griffin, a 5* sign an LOI on signing day. Several days later he signed with Miami. If we could have reused the spot, there is zero reason not to have signed Griffin.
Posted on 2/21/13 at 1:17 pm to tmc94
Anybody know anything about Georgia's class? I'm going to look into it more when I get home because it is aggravating trying to do it on the phone, but...
They signed 19 in 2012, two didn't qualify and they enrolled 17. They have added 33 this year. ETA: The two who didn't qualify are rejoining. One enrolled early, the other did not and signed again. In 2011 they signed 26 and two didn't qualify.
They signed 19 in 2012, two didn't qualify and they enrolled 17. They have added 33 this year. ETA: The two who didn't qualify are rejoining. One enrolled early, the other did not and signed again. In 2011 they signed 26 and two didn't qualify.
This post was edited on 2/21/13 at 1:22 pm
Posted on 2/21/13 at 1:25 pm to MOT
yeah, but it can be tough to do that math. We signed 20 in 2012 (19 enrolled) and ended up with 9 EEs (one of which didn't qualify so the sites only show 8). We should have had only 6 spots. But we had 4 EEs in the 2012 class so we had 10. But we only signed 9 and I was told that we only had room for 9. Thus my Ray comment.
Georgia I think was in the same boat and it can be difficult to get a good handle on how many they had room for. They probably had some EEs last year. You'd have to go back a ways to do a count though because an EE is not necessarily allowed to count back (if you took 25 the year before). And the sites do a really poor job of tracking EEs. You'd have to know.
Georgia I think was in the same boat and it can be difficult to get a good handle on how many they had room for. They probably had some EEs last year. You'd have to go back a ways to do a count though because an EE is not necessarily allowed to count back (if you took 25 the year before). And the sites do a really poor job of tracking EEs. You'd have to know.
This post was edited on 2/21/13 at 1:26 pm
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